Political Hotsheet
October 16, 2009 11:24 AM

Public Option Gains Momentum

The House of Representatives may unveil a unified health care bill as early as next week, and new cost estimates give moderates in the House a stronger argument for the type of government-run health insurance plan, or "public option," that they favor.

Democrats in the House are considering a number of different ways to fashion a public option for their health care bill. Last week they submitted a few ideas to the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office (CBO) to find out how much they would cost.

The CBO is reporting that the public option favored by moderates would cost less than the option favored by liberals, the Washington Post reports.

The liberal public plan would give doctors and medical providers the same payment rates they receive from Medicare, plus an additional five percent; this plan had initially been expected to be the most cost-effective, since Medicare rates are cheaper than the rates private insurers pay. But it didn’t turn out that way: A health care bill with this plan would reportedly cost $905 billion, according to the CBO.

Moderates prefer a government-run plan to negotiate payment rates directly with medical providers, so the government would be on a "level playing field" with the private industry. This structure, they argued, would make sure doctors are not short-changed.

It was expected that this plan would cost the government more, however, so the House submitted this proposal along with a plan to expand Medicaid eligibility to 150 percent of the poverty line, a strategy believed to be cheaper than giving more low-income people tax credits to buy their own insurance. The strategy worked: the CBO came back with a price tag of $859 billion for the bill with the moderate public option and expanded Medicaid.

CBSNews.com Special Report: Health Care
Do Dems Still Need 60 Senate Votes for Health Care?

On Thursday, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) once again emphatically stressed the need for a public option, Politico reports, saying, "If you are going to mandate that people must buy insurance, why would you throw them into the lion’s den of the insurance industry without some leverage with a public option?"

Pelosi reportedly said she wants to unveil the finished House health care bill as early as next week.

Even one of the most high-profile Democratic opponents to the public option in the House was reportedly suggesting new public option plans this week.

Rep. Mike Ross (D-Ark.) suggested to colleagues the idea of opening up Medicare to those under 65 who are uninsured, according to the Hill newspaper.

Opening up Medicare -- a government plan people are familiar with and like -- could be simpler than starting a new public plan. However, that idea has already been largely written off as too liberal since it is perceived as a precursor to a single-payer health care system.

Ross reportedly said he merely suggested the idea, though he does not endorse it. Ross voted in favor of a public option compromise in a House committee, but he later came out in opposition to it.

Public option supporters are also speaking up in the Senate, according to reports.

"At a luncheon behind closed doors, Democrats said, liberals made impassioned pleas for a new government insurance plan, and they challenged the chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, Max Baucus, Democrat of Montana, to defend his bill, which has no such public option," the New York Times reported. "Among the outspoken champions of the public plan were Senators Sherrod Brown, Democrat of Ohio; Tom Harkin, Democrat of Iowa; and Bernard Sanders of Vermont, an independent who caucuses with the Democrats."

Meanwhile, the liberal reform group Health Care for America Now launches a new television ad today, shown above, that argues a public option is necessary because of the current lack of competition in the health insurance market.
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by Justathought52 October 19, 2009 11:00 AM EDT
Of course a narrow minded one thought individual such as yourself would hone in on one element of the piece just like the good little taper recorders you all are for Cluster Fox news and the Lumphead. You do realize ALL those items for PUBLIC BENeFIT are paid for by tax payer money! So if the gov provides a service and benefit for its people that is paid for by the peoples money (taxes) then that is EXACTLY what you and your other idiot brainwahsed friends are using to cry socialism! And by the way less than genious, of course wealth disrbutiion is just fine with your greedy selfish misguiuded ilk as long as it spreads from the bottom up! Like has happened with your right wing nut case idieology for the last 12 years! And you wonder why the economy collpsed? get a clue, you cannot take the wealth of a nation "shove it up" into just few hands without major economic catastrohpy. Nuf said!
Reply to this comment
by cmcapcathletic October 17, 2009 1:38 PM EDT
I am poor. I do not have health care for myself or my two minor children. I am unemployed and have just finished my AAB. I am trying to start my own business, while looking for full time work and home schooling those two minor children. I have used both public and private health insurance plans and I am here to say that it was a relief to get off of the public dole for both food and health insurance. Public health should be for emergency situations only or when no family member can care for the individual (which would be an emergency) if the nation wants to continue to insure the aging population -fine. But this public health plan is nothing more than a complete intrusion into our God-given freedoms and nothing less than legislational theft. Remember,at one time it was legal to strip blacks and women of their property and God-given rights. That didn't make it right-or sustainable. This is a menace to our nation and an attempt to pickpocket the American people through coercive means. Knock it off Congress and the Executive Branch.
Reply to this comment
by lovenpeace1 October 16, 2009 6:21 PM EDT
by velma179 October 16, 2009 6:06 PM EDT
"...I do work and I do pay taxes -- mine are about to go up... no, not because of health care reform, because the Bush tax cuts will expire...."

*******************

Hey velma179,

Bush's Massive Tax Cuts of 2001 and 2003 were only for the Rich. Are you saying you are Rich? Did you ever read why the Republican Congress made the Tax Cuts TEMPorary? They wanted to limit the damage to our Revenues.

In the Stimulus bill that President Obama signed back in Feb 2009, there was about $345 Billions in Tax Cuts for the middle-class.

Amazing how nobody gives Obama credits for that.
Reply to this comment
by velma179 October 16, 2009 6:54 PM EDT
lovegetpeace..

Rich? Well, that's a relative term. My income changes year to year, but it remains "very comfortable". This was a pretty good year, next year looks like it could be better...

As for the Bush tax cuts expiring. You may have a point about the Republican Congress, though I have never heard it said that way... very possible indeed.

BUT -- the real reason they are expiring is the legislation was passed under "budget reconciliation". Yep, the thing you keep hearing about being a possible path to pass health reform... and what I hope doesn't end up being the only way to do it.

Why?

Because bills passed under budget reconciliation AUTOMATICALLY expire after five years.

I really don't want to have to keep "going to the mattresses" for health reform because the legislation has a built in expiration and would have to be rewritten or reauthorized as a matter of course.


Yep, I know about the cuts Obama gave to millions of Americans and I applaud him for that. Frankly, I give him credit for a lot more than I'd take issue with him about. I don't agree with everything he's done, but I am confident the direction we're going is FORWARD.
by sharncedar October 16, 2009 6:19 PM EDT
Shoudn't the ignoramus Democrats be asking the Chinese about the cost of the health care "plan"? That is who is going to pay for it in the short term. In the long term, it will be young people and maybe even children who will pay for the next few years of free health care. As anyone who is not a Democrat knows, after 10 years of this "free" health care tyhere will be no appetite left for the world to pay for the lazy and worthless types in the USA to clog up emergency rooms with their imagined complaints - at that point there will be no health care. Think of Newtonian physics, an equal and opposite reaction for every action. We extend free health care to millions upon millions of worthless lndolent freeloaders today, and tomorrow our credit dries up and there is no money for health care for anyone.

This is so silly its like monkeys ruling the country. Hugo Chavez probably has more sense than this group of Democrats. You can't actually spend money you don't have, you think you can, but you can't. It has to be collected one way or the other.
Reply to this comment
by lovenpeace1 October 16, 2009 6:24 PM EDT
by sharncedar October 16, 2009 6:19 PM EDT
"...That is who is going to pay for it in the short term. ...."

*****************

Hey sharncedar,

According to the Non-Partisan Congressional Budget Office website http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=10068, the Effective Federal Income Tax Rate for the last tabulated period 2006 was 9.1%.

The Effective Federal Income Tax Rate is what the Average American pays After all Deductions and Credits.

If you include Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Gasoline and many other Federal Taxes, the Effective Combine Federal Tax Rate is 20.7%. This is the lowest of all the Industrial and Developed Nations.

In fact, according to the former House Majority leader Dick Anmey, R-Texas, whose conservative group FreedomWorks setup Tea Parties around the country this past April 15, 2009, said to the Washington Post that "...the tax rate right now is at a good level."

Half of Americans pay no Federal Income Tax:
http://money.cnn.com/2009/09/30/pf/taxes/who_pays_taxes/index.htm?cnn=yes

We can pay down our $13 Trillions Federal Debt by just increasing our Effective Tax Rate to the world's Average.
by lovenpeace1 October 16, 2009 6:17 PM EDT
by velma179 October 16, 2009 6:06 PM EDT
"...I do work and I do pay taxes -- mine are about to go up... no, not because of health care reform, because the Bush tax cuts will expire...."

*******************

Hey velma179,

In the stimulus bill that President Obama signed back in Feb 2009, there was about $345 Billions in Tax Cuts for the middle-class.

Amazing how nobody gives him credit for that.
Reply to this comment
by smoknmirrors October 16, 2009 5:21 PM EDT
Ross reportedly said he merely suggested the idea, though he does not endorse it. Ross voted in favor of a public option compromise in a House committee, but he later came out in opposition to it.

Does this mean he was for it before he was against it before he suggested it before he didn't endorse it? Or did he vote for before speaking against before suggesting consideration before not endorsing? This is one confused flip-flopper begging to be medicated. Fortunately, he has a taxpayer funded health insurance plan that will cover it.
Reply to this comment
by clowry1611 October 16, 2009 4:44 PM EDT
i just wish they would finally ram this junk thru so we could move onto some other topics to argue about, lol
Reply to this comment
by USA_is_back October 16, 2009 5:18 PM EDT
by NewYork-Joe-5 October 16, 2009 4:48 PM EDT
Exactly, like arguing about which democrats will be thrown out of office for ignoring THE PEOPLE and supporting this travesty.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Or the next Republican sex scandal
by Mortarman29 October 16, 2009 4:28 PM EDT
"I am all for small government - but this is a consumer protection, and we're getting robbed at gunpoint using our health as the bargaining chip. The insurance industry has proven it will not regulate itself, and people are dying - that's exactly when the FDA or any other regulatory agency would step in as well"

Well, if we use consumer protection as the benchmark, then we give the government the right to regulate everything. So, it then gets to tell me what and how much I eat (because if I eat the wrong foods or too much, I will become a health burden according to them). It will tell me I will have to exercise or be fined, because without exercise, I will become a liability on society.

You see where it all leads?

Instead, why not just let individuals take care of individuals?? Why not, if you dont carry insurance, then you get stuck with the bill (or denied care!!)?? Why not let state governments deal with the small minority that cannot get insurance? Why not, if you act like an idiot and jump out of a plane and break your back...then your insurance company can charge you more for being an idiot? Or, the insurance company can reward people who live healthier lifestyles with smaller payments??
Reply to this comment
by jxknowles October 16, 2009 4:40 PM EDT
by Mortarman29

It's convoluted logic like yours that created the mess in the first place. First there is a 'large' minority of people who cannot get access to or cannot afford health care.

Emergency rooms have to treat people, by law, because many times the identity or 'insurance status' of the individual is not known. If you were out jogging and got hit by a car, should you be denied life-saving surgery because the insurance card and ID were bounced from your pocket? Obviously not.

The plans put forth by Congress tackle a tough situation and raise issues, but doing nothing would be unforgiveable.
by Mortarman29 October 16, 2009 4:50 PM EDT
First, there isnt a "large minority". There is around 12 million Americans that cant get coverage or are having difficulty getting coverage. 12 million out of 300 million is a small minority.


And I dont say "do nothing." But what I say first is, do it legally (which means the Federal government get out of all of it, execpt where it deals with interstate commerce). Second, I say open up competition, which will bring down prices and increase quality. Third, I say the states should take care of their citizens that cannot cover themselves. Let them, either thru public offerings in the state or thru private initiatives regulated by the state, come up with programs that will take care of these folks.

Yousee, I am not anti-reform. But I am pro-Constitution...and pro-liberty. And the proposals in Washington these days are anti-Constitution and anti-liberty.

And I cannot support anything that does that!
by Justathought52 October 16, 2009 4:27 PM EDT
This morning I was awakened by my alarm clock powered by socialist electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US Department of Energy. I then took a shower in the socialist clean water provided by the municipal water utility. After that, I turned on the socialist radio to one of the FCC regulated channels to hear what the socialist National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like using socialist satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of socialist US Department of Agriculture inspected food and taking the socialist drugs which have been determined to be safe by the Food and Drug Administration.



At the appropriate time, as kept accurate by the socialist National Institute of Standards and Technology and the US Naval Observatory, I got into my socialist National Highway Traffic Safety Administration approved automobile and set out to work on the socialist roads build by the socialist local, state, and federal departments of transportation, potentially stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the socialist Environmental Protection Agency, using socialist legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank. On the way I deposited mail to be sent out via the socialist US Postal Service and dropped the kids off at the socialist public school.



If I get lost, I can use my socialist GPS navigation technology developed by the United States Department of Defense and made available to the public in 1996 by President Bill Clinton who issued a policy directive declaring socialist GPS to be a dual-use military/civilian system to be managed as a national socialist asset.



After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the socialist workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, enjoying another two meals which again do not kill me because of the socialist USDA, I drove my socialist NHTSA car back home, on the socialist DOT roads, to my house which did not burn down in my absence because of the socialist state and local building codes and socialist fire marshal's inspection, and which had not been plundered of it's valuables thanks to the socialist local police department.



I then got on my computer and used the socialist internet which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration and browse the socialist World Wide Web using my graphical web browser, both made possible by Al Gore's socialist High Performance Computing and Communication Act of 1991. I then post on freerepublic.com and Fox news forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right.
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by velma179 October 16, 2009 4:41 PM EDT
by Justathought52 October 16, 2009 4:27 PM EDT

Wonderful post!

I think my next project will be titled "A Day Without Government" -- it'll be a horror flick, for sure!
by mj121121 October 16, 2009 4:50 PM EDT
And you didn't even mention libraries! Thanks for making this point again ... it seems it can't be repeated enough because not everyone gets it yet.
by R_C_Jackman October 16, 2009 4:13 PM EDT
Interstate Option, yes. Public Option, no.
Reply to this comment
by Justathought52 October 19, 2009 11:10 AM EDT
Aren't you the same wing nuts crying about "States Rights" not too long ago? Now, but just for this issue apparently, you want to take away the states right to regulate and control health insurance companies in their own states? What? Ohhhhh as long as its the way you want it to be and nobody else then that's ok. Sure it is..Right.....
by mary-miami October 16, 2009 4:05 PM EDT
The only people who don't want free healthcare for all Americans, are the people who already have healthcare. They don't have to worry about what to do if they or their loved ones get sick. All other civilized, industrialized countries provide free healthcare to their citizens...Europe, Canada, Scandinavian countries...and they are free nations as well. People who have no way of seeing a doctor, would be very happy to have an appointment in a month, if need be. It's better than never getting medical attention.

www.marymiami.wordpress.com
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by Mortarman29 October 16, 2009 4:09 PM EDT
There is no such thing as free healthcare. Someone ALWAYS pays. What yo uare talking about is people taking money out of their neighbor's pocket to pay for their healthcare. That is called theft!
by velma179 October 16, 2009 4:00 PM EDT
by abbe91 October 16, 2009 11:57 AM EDT
Time to get rid of the ant-trust exemption of insurance companies, for a start.

********

YES!
Reply to this comment
by lovenpeace1 October 16, 2009 4:06 PM EDT
by abbe91 October 16, 2009 11:57 AM EDT
Time to get rid of the ant-trust exemption of insurance companies, for a start.

****************

Monopoly is bad anywhere!
by Mortarman29 October 16, 2009 4:14 PM EDT
I agree!! Monoploies are bad!!! So, the government needs to chaneg the rules that has allowed for monopolies. Let the free market decide!
by USA_is_back October 16, 2009 3:27 PM EDT
by Mortarman29 October 16, 2009 3:06 PM EDT


The free exercise of our liberties is none of the government's business!!

---------------------------------------------------------------------

So you think the goverment should stay out of a woman's choice to do what she wants with her body? I agree

It's none of the governments business who should get married? I agree
Reply to this comment
by Mortarman29 October 16, 2009 3:32 PM EDT
I say that the Federal government has no role in either of these things!

Now, the state government, in the case of abortion, can side with the life of the baby. Yo usee, if a woman wants to get bigger boobs, that is a woman's body choice. It affects no one else but her. If she wants an abortion, she is taking away someone else's inalienable right to life. In that, then her right to her body is trumped by that baby's right to life. Yo usee, your liberty ends where the next person's starts!

On marriage, I dont care. The Federal government has no business in it. If Iowa wants gay marriage, then great. In my state, the citizens passed a constitutional amendment outlawing it. Which is great. You see, I dont want to dictate to Iowans what they should do. And they should do the same by staying out of our business.
by slownewsday_5 October 16, 2009 3:55 PM EDT
There's no baby until birth, Mortie. If you see someone committing infanticide, call the police.

And on marriage, you sound like a southerner from the 60's on race issues.
by Mortarman29 October 16, 2009 4:03 PM EDT
I disagree Slow. So there.
by Mortarman29 October 16, 2009 4:04 PM EDT
And sorry...this isnt a race issue with the marriage issue. And race is allowed to marry any other race.
by slownewsday_5 October 16, 2009 4:07 PM EDT
Again, your reading-comprehension problem pops up, Mortie - I said you "sound like"... in other words, you are "analogous to"... And you do.
by lovenpeace1 October 16, 2009 2:56 PM EDT
Hey Mortarman29,

I know you were raised with the teaching that Smaller Government is better. I know you have worked hard, sacrificed and killed yourself promoting less government.

In other words, you trust Capitalism will work just great without any government regulations or interventions.

What is Greed for you?
Reply to this comment
by Mortarman29 October 16, 2009 3:06 PM EDT
No. Here is the thing...as I have expressed before. Government is a NECESSARY EVIL. Both words apply. it is necessary to level the playing field, to enforce contracts, and to keep one persons liberty from spilling into another's.

It is EVIL in the fact that government never wants to stay there. it ALWAYS wants more and more power. And with that, comes the loss of liberty.

I believe liberty is the engine of everything we do. Not dictates of government.

I likened it recently to a football game. The government is to be the referee. It is to take the rules that are meant to make the game fair, and to make the call. But it is NOT to play in the game. It is not to get between the two teams, except where one has violated the rules.

The free exercise of our liberties is none of the government's business!!

What regulations are to me are the same as the football rulebook. They are nothing but rules that make it fair for everyone to play. Of course, they do not decide outcomes. Someone in the game will win, and someone will lose. Someone will play better and someone wont. That isnt the job of the government to decide who wins and who loses!! Only to ensure the game was fair and everyone played by the rules.

On greed...greed is coveting something that isnt yours. Wanting to keep what you have labored for and gotten thru your own work and ideas is not greed.
by skyk-2009 October 16, 2009 3:19 PM EDT
Mortarman29, "WE the PEOPLE" are a "Necessary Evil"? You do understand that we have a government OF the PEOPLE, BY the PEOPLE and FOR the PEOPLE don't you. You do realize those folks who are working on this reform were ELECTED by WE the PEOPLE don't you. Now where is it written that WE the PEOPLE can NOT have a Government Option if we want one?
by Mortarman29 October 16, 2009 3:27 PM EDT
Sorry Sky...I was quoting one of the Founders, who said that government is a necessary evil. Your issue is with them!
by Mortarman29 October 16, 2009 3:29 PM EDT
The Consitution doesnt give the Federal government the power to have a government option.

Now, We the People can give them the power...but it requires we amend the Constitution...which We the People have the power to do!

And, one quick note: please look up discussions and definitions for soft tyranny and/or tyranny of the masses. It exists! That is why democracy is the worst form of government. Our Founders wer adament about this...and they were correct!
by lovenpeace1 October 16, 2009 2:51 PM EDT
Hey Mortarman29,

"...Well, the government never stops grabbing more of the pie..."

If by pie you mean Federal Taxes, then have I got great news for you....

According to the Non-Partisan Congressional Budget Office website http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=10068, the Effective Federal Income Tax Rate for the last tabulated period 2006 was 9.1%.

The Effective Federal Income Tax Rate is what the Average American pays After all Deductions and Credits.

If you include Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Gasoline and many other Federal Taxes, the Effective Combine Federal Tax Rate is 20.7%. This is the lowest of all the Industrial and Developed Nations.

In fact, according to the former House Majority leader Dick Anmey, R-Texas, whose conservative group FreedomWorks setup Tea Parties around the country this past April 15, 2009, said to the Washington Post that "...the tax rate right now is at a good level."

Half of Americans pay no Federal Income Tax:
http://money.cnn.com/2009/09/30/pf/taxes/who_pays_taxes/index.htm?cnn=yes

We can pay down our $13 Trillions Federal Debt by just increasing our Effective Tax Rate to the world's Average.

SO, Americans are the most Selfish, Greedy, Irresponsible, Shame, Lazy (Obese), Uneducated and UnPatriotic Taxpayers of the World.
Reply to this comment
by Mortarman29 October 16, 2009 3:15 PM EDT
Yo uarent getting the FULL stats! You talk about averages, those are averages. But please remember, most of U.S. citizens pay little or no Federal income taxes. Yes, that's right...most!!

My issue is that while we tax a small minority of Americans...all Americans get a say in where that money goes. I think all Americans should have skin in the game!! Which is why I am for the abolishment of the income tax and for us to have a national sales tax.

In that way, when you get your paycheck, you get ALL of the money you earned...no matter how much you make. Then, YOU decide when you pay taxes, based on when yo udecide to purchase something. In that way, EVERY American will be paying taxes and thus will share equally in the tax burden!

Now, you'll say that isnt fair to the poor. Of course it is. Let's take the purchasing of a TV set. A person of limited means goes out and buys an older model 23inch TV set for let's say...$100. And let's say there is a 7% national sales tax. Well, they would pay $7 in taxes, with the final bill being $107.

Now, a guy making more money decides to buy a big flat screen TV. And let's say for this example that it costs $1000. And with the 7% sales tax, he has to pay $70 in taxes...with the final bill being $1070.

Both instances are VERY fair. Both paid the same rate, even though both didnt pay the same amount!! The poorer guy paid $7 in taxes, while the rich guy paid $70 in taxes.

This is the best way to deal with this. And it also will help every American in trying to understand what increases in taxes do. So, when a politician tries to come in and increase taxes...let's say to 8%, the poor and rich alike will scream bloody murder and vote the bastards out if they do!! Because both the poor and the rich have skin in the game!

Under the current system, the poor doesnt care how much taxes are increased. They dont pay taxes!
by pickaguitar1 October 16, 2009 2:51 PM EDT
YES WE CAN!
Reply to this comment
by lovenpeace1 October 16, 2009 2:36 PM EDT
Hey Biggest_Rick,

According to the Insurance industry own numbers, 5% of Health Cost is due to Tort.

Therefore, $17,000.00 per year per policy in 2008 - $850 (5% of $17K) = $16,150.00

Still, at $16,150.00, America is number one worldwide by far in cost per capita.

Any rebuttals? Please do not get me wrong, I am in favor of reforming tort laws but still that does not explains our Out-Of-Control cost of Health Care.
Reply to this comment
by Mortarman29 October 16, 2009 2:43 PM EDT
Between me and my company, I pay around $14,000 a year for my family's policy.

There are many factors. The demands of our health system (we expect the best treatment when we see the doctor...and when you want the best, you must pay for it!). Tort issues are another. Another is government mandates that jack up the costs of doing business. And many more. it isnt just one thing.
by slownewsday_5 October 16, 2009 2:48 PM EDT
You only pay $14,000 for your ENTIRE family, Mort?? Then you've never had to use it for anything serious.

You are waaaay below average the 2009 average of $7,200 per capita, unless it's just you and your wife.

And yet you talk about paying for the best... You really don't have a clue how much the best really costs, do you?
by Biggest_Rick October 16, 2009 2:48 PM EDT
I'm certainly not putting the whole problem on Tort issues like I have seen some do, but I think it has to be included as part of any plan. I also think there has to be a streamlining of paperwork which adds tons of expense to helath care. A lot of doctors are certainly doing well, but a lot of them are not. The cost for some doctors to staff an office, buy insurance, pay for equipment and people able to properly do billing has made the cost of running a family practice much higher than need be. To me paperwork requirments would be another area to look at and find sensible reforms for. I am an accountant and know of doctors who are making it on 5 figure incomes. For the investment in time and education to become a doctor that is a very poor return on their investment.
by Mortarman29 October 16, 2009 2:55 PM EDT
Slow...again you have no clue what yo uare talking about (not surprising). I literally just looked at what my employer pays and what I pay for my medical plan (not including dental...that is a separate plan). And for my wife and me, as well as 4 kids under the age of 18...that is what is paid! Added to that, my wife is just completing cancer treatment (to include radiation treatment) over the last year...on top of getting over a car accident she had 4 years ago that caused back issues that she is just now recovering from.

Her care has been outstanding. She has seen some of the best doctors in her field. Once the cancer was diagnosed, it was literally 2 1/2 weeks until surgery, and then she went on her post-surgery treatment. And she is now on the way back to full health.

I have had almost no problem with the system! Yes, because of co-pays, our out of pocket expenses have gone up by a factor of 4 this last year (due to her treatments). But that is to be expected!
by slownewsday_5 October 16, 2009 3:01 PM EDT
So you say that your insurance went up a factor of 4 UP to $14,000, AND you've had cancer treatment?

Then you have some kind of gov't subsidized insurance. CHAMPUS? Something left over from your military days?

Otherwise, you lie.
by Mortarman29 October 16, 2009 3:24 PM EDT
No Slow...please follow along with the discussion! My premium (and that of what my company pays for )amounts to $14,000 a year.

I then have co pays, etc...and due to the increased issues in my household because of my wife, our out of pocket expenses went up four fold this year.

So, again...you are having reading comprehension problems...as usual!
by velma179 October 16, 2009 3:42 PM EDT
The money paid for Health Insurance includes:

Premiums
DEDUCTIBLES
Co-pays

There isn't ANY plan I have ever heard of (today, for sure) that does not include DEDUCTIBLES.

There may be a veracity issue here... or to be kind, perhaps it is word usage. Regardless, the numbers don't SEEM realistic.
by velma179 October 16, 2009 4:16 PM EDT
I just spoke to a friend who sells insurance.

I'm wrong about there being no plans without deductibles. There are some available... but they cost upwards of $800 a month for individuals. Family plans without deductibles are VERY expensive.

These work for people who can afford high premiums and they are not as easy to qualify for -- though "group policies" such as those offered by employers have far less stringent qualifiers than plans that folks (like me) who are self employed have to pursue.

(sheesh... I may have just gotten some good advice BECAUSE I was reading around on comment boards...wow!)
by lovenpeace1 October 16, 2009 2:27 PM EDT
Hey Mortarman29,

These AVErage Statistics includes all the Pros and Cons of each nation.

These AVEragestatistics includes the wait (con) and illegal aliens (con) of all nations.

Please do not come up with America is the only nation with Undocumented Aliens.

Incidentally, according to the Health Insurance industry own numbers, they already include an average of $1,100.00 in the total cost per insurance policy for the Un-Insured and Under-Insured who walks into the Emergency room. Yes, granted, a small percentage of these Un-Insured are Undocumented Aliens.

In other words, $17,000.00 per year per policy in 2008 - $1,100.00 = $15,900.00.

Still, at $15,900.00, America is number one worldwide by far in cost per capita.

Any rebuttals?
Reply to this comment
by Mortarman29 October 16, 2009 2:34 PM EDT
No. I have read recent studies that show, on the issue of infant mortality for example, that we count our infants differently than most European nations. So, a baby that is born premature and dies, in some countries, they dont count it as a death...but instead as a miscarriage. We count them as deaths. Shoot, I believe I saw one country (I need to look it up again to see which one) that didnt count infant mortality unless the baby was over 3 months of age when he/she died. So, you see...we arent counting the same numbers!!

So, the issue we have here that I was trying to bring up is that if yo uwant to know a nation's healthcare system and how good it is, you need to look at outcomes of treatment! So, take diseases, cancers, injuries, etc and compare one nation's treatment of its citizens to another.

And in that, you will find that our healthCARE system ranks as one of the tops in the world.
by slownewsday_5 October 16, 2009 2:41 PM EDT
"And in that, you will find that our healthCARE system ranks as one of the tops in the world"


As far as advanced medical technology and ability, I'll agree.

But as far healthCARE, as you emphasized, people must logically be able to access that technology for it to count.

In other words, we have the potential, but not the actuality.
by Mortarman29 October 16, 2009 2:50 PM EDT
Not true Slow. Again, I wasnt talking about what we have sitting in the hospitals. I am talking about OUTCOMES! As I posted earlier, the numbers for survival of breat cancer or the like. Outcomes is what we want to look at...on each disease, injury, etc. So, since the following is true:

Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers. Breast cancer mortality is 52 percent higher in Germany than in the United States, and 88 percent higher in the United Kingdom. Prostate cancer mortality is 604 percent higher in the U.K. and 457 percent higher in Norway. The mortality rate for colorectal cancer among British men and women is about 40 percent higher.

Then, it shows that the outcomes of each healthcare system show different results. And ourse tends to always be at the top!
by slownewsday_5 October 16, 2009 2:54 PM EDT
" I am talking about OUTCOMES!"


For the few, sure. I'm talking about the actual health of our citizens.
by Mortarman29 October 16, 2009 2:59 PM EDT
Still dodging facts, huh Slow?
by slownewsday_5 October 16, 2009 3:03 PM EDT
Again, Mort, present an actual fact, and we'll talk. I have asked many times whether you include the uninsured in your stats, and you keep dodging the question.
by Mortarman29 October 16, 2009 3:25 PM EDT
Slow, these stats include all outcomes i nthe U.S. for the particular disease or injury.
by Biggest_Rick October 16, 2009 2:26 PM EDT
What amazes me is that instead of reforming the present system it seems we have a government that wishes to throw the whole system out and start fresh. I can support common sense reform, but I am very leery of any system politicians create, and then exempt themselves from. I am also leery of any new system that does not include sensible tort reforms. We have people angry about big bonuses and raises paid on Wall Street, why isn't anyone upset what some of these trial attorneys make?
Reply to this comment
by lovenpeace1 October 16, 2009 2:32 PM EDT
Hey Biggest_Rick,

According to the Insurance industry own numbers, 5% of Health Cost is due to Tort.

Therefore, $17,000.00 per year per policy in 2008 - $850 (5% of $17K) = $16,150.00

Still, at $15,900.00, America is number one worldwide by far in cost per capita.

Any rebuttals? Please do not get me wrong, I am in favor of reforming tort laws but still that does not explains our Out-Of-Control cost of Health Care.
by Mortarman29 October 16, 2009 2:45 PM EDT
Reveal...yes it has. Again, if you look up Social Security and Medicare as examples, the folks proposing them made promises about how far they would end up going. Well, they were either stupid or they lied because what they proposed is NOTHING near what we have today!!

So, these folks (who by the way have already said they want a single payer system) get this started, where will it end? Well, the government never stops grabbing more of the pie. So the answer is that these statists get their wish over time.
by slownewsday_5 October 16, 2009 2:52 PM EDT
"by Mortarman29
Well, they were either stupid or they lied because what they proposed is NOTHING near what we have today!!"


You must not realize what Reagan did to SS... Or is it just your selective memory?
by Mortarman29 October 16, 2009 2:59 PM EDT
I blame EVERYONE of the politicians!
by Mortarman29 October 16, 2009 2:20 PM EDT
Fact No. 10: Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations.[13] The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other single developed country.[14] Since the mid-1970s, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to American residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined.[15] In only five of the past 34 years did a scientist living in America not win or share in the prize. Most important recent medical innovations were developed in the United States.[16]

([13] "The U.S. Health Care System as an Engine of Innovation," Economic Report of the President (Washington, D.C.: Government Printing Office, 2004), 108th Congress, 2nd Session H. Doc. 108-145, February 2004, Chapter 10, pages 190-193, available at http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy05/pdf/2004_erp.pdf; Tyler Cowen, New York Times, Oct. 5, 2006; Tom Coburn, Joseph Antos and Grace-Marie Turner, "Competition: A Prescription for Health Care Transformation," Heritage Foundation, Lecture No. 1030, April 2007; Thomas Boehm, "How can we explain the American dominance in biomedical research and development?" Journal of Medical Marketing, Vol. 5, No. 2, 2005, pages 158-66, U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, July 2002. Available at http://fraser.stlouisfed.org/publications/erp/page/8649/download/47455/8649_ERP.pdf .

[14] Nicholas D. Kristof, "Franklin Delano Obama," New York Times, February 28, 2009. Available at http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/01/opinion/01Kristof.html.

[15] The Nobel Prize Internet Archive. Available at http://almaz.com/nobel/medicine/medicine.html.

[16] "The U.S. Health Care System as an Engine of Innovation," 2004 Economic Report of the President.)
Reply to this comment
by slownewsday_5 October 16, 2009 2:23 PM EDT
Finally, you present an actual fact.

1 out of 10 this time around, Mortie - congrats! That's better than usual.
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