Coop's Corner
August 18, 2009 12:14 AM

Stop, Children, What's That Sound?

About a dozen openly armed protesters showed up while the President was giving a speech at the Veterans of Foreign Wars national convention in Phoenix on Monday. CNN reported that two of the demonstrators toted assault rifles, tentatively identified as AR-15 semi-automatics.

The obvious question: Why bring along that kind of firepower to a public demonstration? The response from one unidentified demonstrator: because he could. "In Arizona, I still have some freedoms," he told the Arizona Republic.

True enough, the state has an open carry law. But an AR-15 with a 30-round magazine? It's not as if Red Army commandoes were about to jump out of the sky. I spent a good amount of time lugging around this Colt semi-automatic during my army service and, truth be told, you don't need to be an especially skilled marksman to inflict severe damage on a target. (And for the record, I was a lousy shot.)

From the video, it's unclear which side the guy filmed with the AR-15 slung over his shoulder belonged to. He was standing with the pro-Obama demonstrators. The CNN reporter said another rifle-bearing protestor identified himself with the anti-Obama protestors. (Check out the CNN report below.)



This is turning into a trend. (Read Declan McCullagh's Q&A here with William Kostric, who turned up outside President Obama's town hall meeting in Portsmouth, N.H. last week.) Maybe bringing weapons along to political protests is turning into the new black. Or maybe someone spiked the water supply and people are high on acid and don't recognize they're tripping. Either way, packing heat to events where emotions already are approaching the boiling point sounds like an invitation to trouble. Michael J.W. Stickings makes the correct observation that bringing guns to an event where the President is scheduled to appear is anything but an expression of freedom. It's a threat.
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by eavysidealways August 25, 2009 7:21 AM EDT
"The pen is mightier than the sword," except when you include html where is isn't supported.
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by vudew August 23, 2009 6:59 PM EDT
Time to clear up a few thing. First Ar-15s are no more an assualt rifle than a single shot rifle,black powder gun or bows and arrows, they are only an assault weapon if used in an assault, it is simply a semiautomatic rifle not an automatic. I have deer rifles with much more fire power than an Ar-15 so the coined term assault rifle is just used to scare people.It is legal to carry a firearm openly in Arizona or concealed by permit. Ill bet there were many more guns present at the Presidents visit to the VA in Phoenix some legally some not.Law abiding permitted gun owners and Non law abiding gun owners carry concealed all the time you just dont know it. In states that do not allow conceal carry it is still done by non law abiding citizens. Weather or not you are pro or con for gun ownership or control the 2nd amendment protects us all. Some non law abiding citizens misuse guns, some knives, some vehicles, some poison etc. etc. The old saying if you outlaw guns weather it be in general or just at political events then only the non law abiding will have guns its such simple logic that I don't understand why more people don't get it. For anyone to say that a law abiding citizen that openly carries any legal firearm anywhere is a nut case or anything but which they are and that is a law abiding citizen exercising their constitutional right is absurd to say the least. The best thing that could happen in this country is for people to mind their own business and leave law abiding citizens and their freedoms(the ones still left) alone. I personally have had to use a firearm ( no shots fired) to defend my family from a home intruder in rural Arizona without that firearm my family very likely would have been harmed, at the very least they would have been traumtized and victims while in our own home, the person was a total stranger but promptly left when facing down the barrel of my .45 and yes i would have shot him had he not left. because of this episode my wife and I both legally carry concealed.Gun control is a liberal theory that a woman found raped and strangled in an alley is morally more superior than a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound.We as americans have a right to self preservation and defense.Gun control is a bad idea here is an example prior to Hitler coming into power in Germany the Weimar government of Germany enacted gun control laws the Hitler entered the picture and in1938 the nazi weapons contro law was added. Once this was done other European countries passed similar laws and Nazi Germany proceeded to take most of europe without firing a shot,history shows us the results of gun control. The 2nd amendment to the constitution of the United States of America really does defend all the other amendments. Gun control advocates remember this I will even protect you, your family and your rights with my gun if needed so get off law abiding gun owner backs and maybe try minding your own business.
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by Eric_Crane August 19, 2009 12:26 PM EDT
"Germans who wish to use firearms should join the SS or the SA - ordinary citizens don't need guns, as their having guns doesn't serve the State."
Heinrich Himmler

There are too many people who forget that guns are just tools. Not good, not bad just tools. Tools that were put in place to guarantee that we as citizens would have the ability to defend ourselves against our government ? if it ever got out of our control.

The posts that talk of an armed police state and a disarmed populace should set off warning bells in the minds of political moderates and especially students of history.

Learn from history. Don?t be shamed into surrendering any of your rights ? including the freedom of speech and the right to bare arms.
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by maestro4660 August 19, 2009 1:38 AM EDT
The paranoia is unbelievable. No-one threatened anyone with a firearm either in NH or AZ. But the Obama supporters are not nearly as blameless. Search Youtube for the union thugs threatening and assaulting William Kostric (the NH gun guy). Watch as William remains passive and calm while the union thug spits in the face of a camera man, and audio reveals that another associate was kicked in the groin by the pro-Obama, anti-Ron Paul union thug. Why in the world wouldn't CBS find that footage to be newsworthy?
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by ballcoach August 18, 2009 10:07 PM EDT
Our forefathers, being intimately familiar with the horrors of unresponsive tyrant's, placed the second amendment in the constitution for a reason. That reason was not hunting or fighting off the Indians. Rather, the second amendment was put into the document so that the citizens of this country would have the means to "throw off" unresponsive and oppressive governments. Let's make no mistake, the second amendment exists so that the people may have to power to check and balance the federal government. It is obvious for those who study to see that one of the earliest orders of business given by would-be dictators is the confiscation of and illegalizing of privately owned weapons. When Emperor Hirohito's war staff proposed an actual invasion of the U.S. Hideki Tojo responded that such a measure would be suicide. He continued, that on every blade of grass would be perched an American with a gun. Our enemies would love nothing more than for that threat to no longer exist. I believe there are those in our government today who seek to subvert it and turn it into something it was never meant to be.
I believe that these armed protesters have the right to bear arms if not prohibited to do so by their states, regardless of who is in town. One of the most basice premises of American democracy is the absolute equality of all persons. President Obama is not above the law. President Obama has his men about him, armed to the teeth, so that he may feel safe from those he deems threats. If he would lend his men to me at my request I would not have a problem leaving my gun at home when in public. Are we really suggesting that, when it comes down to it, his life is more valuable than yours or mine. Conservative protestors have been assaulted in recent weeks. Perhaps these armed citizens feared for their safety. President Ronald Reagan reminded us that freedom is not hereditary. It must be worked and fought and died for, and that if we become unwilling to fight for it we will spend our sunset years telling our children and grandchildren what it was once like in the United States, when men were free. Would to God that we had more citizens with hearts that refuse to be dominated by the increasingly heavy hands of government. How did it ever get so far? How did we lose sight of the fact that men and women are entitled to their wealth when they have stood upon their feet to earn it. How did we lose sight of the scriptures that teach "in the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread," and "if a man does not work he does not eat." This is madness. The majority of American people did not vote for the changes they now see happening. You can literally see these good people boiling over. We call for all citizens who love this land and all of the precious rights conferred with its citizenship, to rise up, to stand up, to speak up and be heard, that our freedoms so long preserved by those willing to give their blood will not be dispersed by those who secretly hate this country.
I would have you all remember that in a democracy power should flow from the people. It may, however, sometimes flow from the end of a gun. Therefore, it is imperative that the people are holding the gun. I fully expect to be put on some government watch list and treated like Will Smith on Enemy of the State, now. I am in God's hands.
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by gcstone August 18, 2009 9:34 PM EDT
I have a good many guns, including rifles, pistols, and shotguns, in my house. I grew up with guns, but never thought it civil that I parade around with a gun at a political rally, nor have I thought it necessary that I apply for a permit to carry a concealed weapon. People who do that appear adolescent and foolish to me. Here?s why.

There are basic fundamental principles that must be observed when carrying a weapon in public. First, understand nobody cares why you carry a gun, but they clearly understand that you have made a public statement that you are willing to use it. There is no getting around that fact. Second, the instant you strap on a gun you are no longer in polite, civil society, and you?re not going to frighten everyone. You may think you are, but you?re not! Third, you have got to be prepared to be challenged by someone who is a lot meaner than you think you are, and he will not allow you back away. You are now in what is known as that existential moment. You?ve either got to use the gun and kill someone or be killed yourself. If you survive, then you can expect to spend the rest of your life in the slammer, or, in some states, face the death penalty. It?s called a lose-lose situation. Those are the consequences and they are not escapable, nor are they very romantic.

I grew up in a hard rock mining town; I worked in the mines; and, the kinds of events I jsut described occurred several times. True, the conflicts were between drunken miners, but mean drunks also go to political rallies. That is a totally foreign world to people who spend their lives in polite society, or to those people who have seen too many movies depicting justice coming out of a gun barrel. ( The latter are unable to distinguish movie fantasy from reality.) Let me say it again. The real world is this---when you carry a gun you are making a public statement that you will use it. You will not be challenging those people who are afraid, you will be challenging the people who?ll take that thing and stick it right up your ?.

These ?gun packing patriots" seem to me to have several problems. I'll only mention five. First, they seem to think they are the only persons who have weapons. Second, they seem to think they are the only persons who love this nation and will fight in its defense. (There are fundamental differences between the American Revolution which they seem to think they?re parroting, and the government of the United States of America today.) Third, they seem to think no one will pull a gun or a knife in heated exchanges at political rallies. Fourth, they seem to think they can't be the victims. Fifth, I am driven to believe the individual and collective IQ of these ?gun packers? is low.
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by ballcoach August 19, 2009 12:58 PM EDT
I'll try to bear in mind that I am conveying these thoughts to an existentialist. It has often been said, opposed to your asserstions to the contrary, that an armed society is a polite society. If all men were good, I would not feel that I needed a gun to protect my family and myself. However, all men are not good and therefore I exercise my right to arm myself with not only a firearm, but the knowledge necessary to use and decide when to use one. Further, you make a poor assumption that anyone who carries a weapon, concealed or otherwise, can be disarmed at will by others. I understand that it is disturbing to you and yours that ordianry citizens possess the means and ability to respond with lethal force to hostile units, but your fear cannot change reality.
by Non-Sequitur August 18, 2009 9:00 PM EDT
$10 says there was a snipers crosshairs aimed right between these morons eyes the whole time they stood there smirking. I'm a gun owner and I think taking a weapon to a presidential appearance is way, way over the line... talk about bad judgment. How does this help relations between opposing sides in this issue besides scaring the pants off of a lot of skittish people by acting like an arrogant sphincter? I think these toads just set back gun rights 10 years by their childish grandstanding and their quest for 15 minutes of fame. The Republican Party has gone insane... they believe their own lies.
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by quietamercan August 19, 2009 2:14 AM EDT
"I think these toads just set back gun rights 10 years"

I have to agree with you there. I think these guys are an answer to the gun control crowd's prayers.
by sanity4u August 18, 2009 7:50 PM EDT
Neoconic insanity.
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by quietamercan August 18, 2009 7:26 PM EDT
I have seen many posts on various forums where people complain about President Obama taking away their freedoms. I see this incident as a sign that we are gaining freedoms. A man brought an AR-15 to an event involving the President and no one found a flimsy excuse to arrest him. Can you imagine what would have happened to this guy if he was at a republican event during the Bush regime? At the 2008 republican national convention 800 protesters were arrested, they even launched raids before the convention to arrest people who were planning to protest. Cindy Sheehan was arrested for refusing to cover an anti-war Tee-Shirt at the 2006 state of the union address. More than 1800 protesters were arrested at the 2004 republican national convention.
To me, it appears that the current administration is showing remarkable restraint.
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by ubrew12 August 18, 2009 9:05 PM EDT
I heard a Presidential spokesman today wheedle all over himself about how 'we don't want to take away anyone's rights, and if they have a right to carry a weapon, then we will abide by the law', etc, etc. It made me sick, to see this administration once again fawning over a rightwing element that is dangerously unstable and will NEVER accept his administration.

George Bush could tell you, you give an inch to crazies (like Al-Qaida) and they take a mile. Well, Bush WAS the crazy, as are his minions, and we shouldn't be doing anything less than condemning them when they do something as bone-headed as this.
by azhogdog August 18, 2009 6:30 PM EDT
So I am a strong Democrat and Gun Owner. I live in a county in Colorado that is 70 percent Republican. We have decided that we will start showing up at republican govenor rally's with our Obama shirts and camo pants and have our 357's and Glocks strapped to our sides. It is our right as Americans.
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by ubrew12 August 18, 2009 8:59 PM EDT
Don't do that. Repubs will start doing it, and pretty soon you'll be shooting more than insults at eacy other across the aisle.
by signseeker1717 August 18, 2009 5:41 PM EDT
I don't think this is what the Founding Fathers intended with the Second Amendment AT ALL. I don't think they envisioned citizens carrying loaded, high powered modern weapons to public gatherings to intimidate their fellow citizens. A militia is supposed to be a group of citizens called out in time of emergency, such as the National Guard - not just any individual who happens to hear black helicopters circling overhead in HIS head. Fear, anger and loaded guns...a tragedy waiting to happen.
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by debinok1 August 18, 2009 7:05 PM EDT
This is EXACTLY what the founding fathers envisioned. When they framed the Constitution AND the 2nd Ammendment, there was NO SUCH THING as the National Guard. We did NOT have a standing military. We had INDIVIDUAL CITIZENS willing to PROTECT AND DEFEND this country against all forces FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC. Those citizens served this country when NEEDED and then returned home to their families. It was not until we became a WORLD LEADER that we had a standing military.
by debinok1 August 18, 2009 7:11 PM EDT
And just FYI, our standing military was NOT instituted to PROTECT the civilians, it was instituted to PROTECT the FINANCIAL HOLDINGS of American companies overseas.
by quatermass2 August 18, 2009 5:12 PM EDT
Sigh. Bush never got to see a protest sign or a political T-shirt, but it's Obama that is "injecting socialist liberal ideas" and making life unbearable for people with overactive imaginations. That's OK, demographics will fix the problem.
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by amateurradio August 18, 2009 4:52 PM EDT
Why do the lib-tards needs to express their horror when people simply express their CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS? No attacks on anyone, no violence, no threats, no disruption, no nothing. But still the lib-tards shriek and stamp their little feet. Let me invite them to leave this country and go somewhere where those rights are not respected. Here they are - and will REMAIN respected.
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by rusenseless August 18, 2009 3:33 PM EDT
What a bunch of paranoid, uptight, pieces of work! Just because we have an intelligent African American at the helm these folks act as though they are going to die tomorrow. Get over yourselves. Times have been changing for the better since the abolishment of slavery. It is unbelievable to me that so many of the white majority have always been so afraid of minorities. Why? Maybe it is because of our tenacious longevity. None of you could have begun to endure the wrongs you have inflicted throught the centuries on them. If you are toting a gun, I hope to God and his angels that the rest of us are protected from you idiots.
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by ubrew12 August 18, 2009 3:16 PM EDT
While we appreciate the right to bear arms, and open carry laws in some states, don't parents also have the right to bring their children to hear the Prez speak? And what parent would do so, knowing that the guy standing next to him, who he doesn't know from Adam, has an AR-47 slung over his shoulder? What are you supposed to think, when you know nothing about the guy standing next to you OTHER than that he's the kind of person who would bring a semi-automatic to a town hall meeting, with children present?

At one of these events, a guy leaned over and his gun fell out of its holster and bounced on the pavement. One parent said that his daughter was at the event when this happened. How would he feel if the gun had gone off, killing his daughter? I know how I would feel.

This is an accident waiting to happen. Its really the height of irresponsibility.
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by quietamercan August 19, 2009 2:26 AM EDT
Do you have a link to the article (or better yet a video) where you saw the guy drop his gun? It sounds like potential blooper reel material.
by Eric_Crane August 19, 2009 3:14 PM EDT
Good thing handguns are drop tested. Even the Colt 1911 is safe to drop - even this 98 year old design a fall is no big deal.

AR-47???

AR-15 - Armalite model 15 is a civilian semi-automatic rifle that typically fires .223 cal /5.56mm lightweight center fire cartridge.

AK-47 - Automatic Kelesnkov-47 is the Soviet Automatic Rifle designed by Mikhail Kalashnikov in 1947 - Typically chambered in the comparatively heavy 30cal/7.62mm.

I wish all my neighbors would take the time to learn how to use a gun. An armed society is a polite society. Take a class at Frontsight in Nevada and see what guns should be about.

But at least learn about what your complaining about enough to not look foolish.
by bciss August 18, 2009 3:12 PM EDT
The government is corrupt. That is clear to anyone with a functioning brain. What is astounding is how many continue to hold on to the partisan politics with a near psychopathic zeal. When these people are two sides of the same coin. Be it a liberal mouthpiece or conservative mouthpiece. Rest assured they are paid very well to spout idiotic and often contradictory info, which serves whomever it is that actually runs things. Yes this country has many issues that need tended to and corrected. Yes government is too much in peoples lives. However showing up at such events packing heat. Is clearly hostile and clearly intended as a threat. Further odds are high those doing it are ill informed and misdirected. How about people remove their heads from their rear ends and recognize they themselves are being manipulated and passions stirred to serve a purpose. Once again to a universally corrupt government. These sort of things will only serve to eventually justify a flat out police state instead of the current one masquerading as democracy. There needs to be a peaceful house cleaning dem and rep. Look at what both sides actually do, not what they say. Truth will become a lot clearer. If we as people withdraw our support of the corrupt they will collapse. No shots fired no threats made. Choose to educate yourself and not be told what your opinion is by your favorite talking head. You will be stunned and frightened and then it all makes sense. The general total lack of common sense government, the constant shell games and lies, serve only to distract. These things are not happening by accident or chance.
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by ubrew12 August 18, 2009 2:19 PM EDT
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the Loony Rightwingers to scare the sh*t out of their neighbors shall not be infringed!!
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by ubrew12 August 18, 2009 2:16 PM EDT
Since Bush passed the Patriot Act, the housing bubble popped, Paulson bailed out the banksters, and the right destroyed single payer healthcare, the new motto of the American Right is:

"You can take my rights, you can take my house, you can take my money, you can EVEN take my health, but GOD save you if you come for my gun!"
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by ubrew12 August 18, 2009 3:06 PM EDT
The stimulus package is an investment, in roads, bridges, schools, prisons, etc. Its also an investment in skilled labor that the private sector has laid off and which would otherwise lose its skill through unemployment. Economists believe stimulus packages like this one repay seven times their value, in increased productivity of the economy.

Now, compare that with the Iraq War. That was a $2 trillion waste of money. And the extra one trillion America spends EVERY YEAR to avoid the healthcare solution thats worked for all our trading partners for 30 years? That ALSO is money just being piled up and burnt. But the stimulus plan is an investment, and investments pay back.
by guidosampan August 18, 2009 2:13 PM EDT
Hail to the Commander in Chief! I am sorry to say that I voted for him in many ways. He promised to stop eavesdropping on us Americans but the computers are still humming away. Nobody remembers that? He also promised openness in government yet will not allow pictures from Abu Gharaib be published, effectively censoring the media. He also promised to end all the wars, yet he's sending 71,000 more troops to Afghanistan to protect the poppy and Marijuana fields there. He promised accountability from the Bush Administration for the horrendous war crimes and atrocities they committed "in the name of all Americans" everywhere. Is it no wonder the word "Americans" used overseas these days is villified by what G.W. Bush and his cronies have done? And Americans are no longer safe to travel abroad?
It sickens me to think that Barack Obama is wearing the same cloak of secrecy as the Bush Administration. Yet he is our president.
So here it is folks. A dozen good hearted Americans brought firearms to a rally where the President made a speech. The President didn't have a problem with it or he wouldn't have made that speech. But he did take notice and that is what counts. You "SHEEPLE" who are freaking out should thank those gentlemen for carrying those firearms and consider taking up arms alongside them if you have the courage. Those men are the ones who will protect you and your loved ones come in harms way, whether it be a "Hurricane Katrina" or some other horrific scenario. Not the government. Embrace those fearless law-abiding few men who have the guts to stand up for what you obviously don't have the courage to confront. They are your first and last ditch stand against tyranny and tyrannical leadership of this country. I s@#t on all of you cowards!
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by Eric_Crane August 19, 2009 2:19 PM EDT
I think it?s time for a third real party. Libertarian.
by jntlw August 18, 2009 2:06 PM EDT
This branishment of pure intimidation rom the right wing nuts is audacious and reprehensible. This type of conduct is not the second amendment and they know it. If this behavior continues we need to get rid of the second amendment entirely. So NRA if you cannot control your guns and be consciencous then you will loose them entirely. Comprendez you right wing bullies!!!!!!!!!!!
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by Eric_Crane August 19, 2009 2:18 PM EDT
Let's see. Your saying do it my way or 'we' will take away your right - and you call the gun people bullies?

Wow.
by ballcoach August 20, 2009 8:29 AM EDT
Control your guns. Which guns were out of control? Who was wounded or threatened in any way by those good citizens who legally carried their guns? I believe you will find that those who legally possess and carry firearms are among the most law abiding citizens in this, as yet, great nation. Get a grip upon reality. Americans are awakening to see what they have done. This administration has been quite like the Wizard in the Wizard of Oz. "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...I am the great and powerful Oz!" You know, here is the message that Americans are finally hearing from Washington, "no matter what I do or say, I am not a Socialist."
by Dr_Zinj August 24, 2009 8:40 AM EDT
Oh jntlw! You sound like such a scared, foolish, ignorant little sheep. You think that someone carrying a weapon at a rally is a threat and the government is sacred? But to actually be a threat, we'd have to point the weapon at you, which none of us are doing. And you think the government is protecting you? The same government that committed the Kent State massacre. The same government that locked up law abiding americans of asian decent and seized their property. The same government that beat the snot out of Rodney King. The same government that says, "Yes, this man is innocent but has to stay behind bars for a few more months until we process the paperwork." The same government that has declared that it's alright to take your property and give it to someone else. The same government that says it would rather see men and women with unmanageable pain suffer rather than use a rather harmless illegal drug. And you have the gall to call the NRA nuts????
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