agree w/ USMC Sergeant to the extent that if you are punched in and on the clock, no matter the company, you are there to do work and not screw ...around Lol! But it depends on type of job to some degree, and ultimately it's up to the boss in charge. Also if the people having sex are discreet and truly make an effort not to be seen, that is at least not terribly gross, but in a bathroom with lots of people coming and going; thats just animalistic.
Prostitutes, no. That reminds me of a story of a fellow employee, an engineer who was still attending graduate school at UC Berkely in Nuclear Engineering. He mentioned he worked at my shipyard, Mare Island Naval Shipyard to a lady he met on campus. She said "What is is you do there?" He replied with the motto "Our sole mission is to serve the fleet." She said "I didn't know the Navy employees male prostitutes."
Years ago, a man and woman was caught having oral sex. They were given a reprimand and the rest of the workers were ordered not to talk about it. But one guy was overheard saying they shouldn't have got punished because they were just have lunch.
They above paragraph is true. But..I do think doing anything inappropriate is a cause for dismissal. We are adult humans not animals. I thing anyone and everyone can wait until work is over and they can go to a motel, apartment anywhere in private. Don't act like dogs.
Up here in Canada, a sergeant in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the national police force, was recently found by an internal disciplinary panel to have had sex with a subordinate at work, exposed himself to a coworker, and drank on the job. All this was over a number of years.
His penalty? Loss of 10 days pay and a reduction of one rank. Oh, and he was transferred to British Columbia from Alberta.
As one would expect, there has been a national outcry.
The problem with this knee-jerk instinct is it's likely to be very expensive. The HR person should use a little restraint. Top priority is to get it documented.
I own a company and the "deal" I would offer the two employees is that BOTH would sign documents that would state that a) they acknowledge being engaged in the activity and b) they would never do it again. - in exchange for keeping their jobs and getting written up. Otherwise, I would see little choice but to terminate and battle it out in a court.
Tmittelstaed probably has the best approach here. An employer pretty much gets to set the terms of employment. Acknowledging disciplinary action by signing said acknowledgment is pretty common.
I have to agree, but before that, there should be a company meeting on the subject of sex in the workplace and sexual harassment. During the meeting have the employees acknowledge company policy on the subject and announce that you've been given information that can cost a couple of employees their jobs...but that you are an understanding and merciful employer that drawing a line in the sand. Should any employee cross that line, it's over.
"...I would tend to think that doing things on paper- after the fact - as a condition of admonishment in keeping the employee, may pose the greater possibility for legal action (initiated on the part of the employee)..."
First document to be signed would be a statement that it happened. If they refused that, then I'd terminate both and take the consequences. After all, she did say that there were witnesses. Many times you can terminate the employee and tell them that you will give them a good reference and that will avoid the legal trouble, whereas if they fight you, your going to take it to court (not settle out of court) which means that while it may be costly, it will mean that there will be publically accesible documentation that any future employer can find showing that they sued you. Which will almost certainly kill their chances of ever getting hired anywhere decent. Usually when you hold a sword in one hand and a bananna in the other, the people go for the bananna.
If there were NO witnesses and it was just me alone who walked in on them, I'd probably turn on my heel and walk out and have a private conversation with each of them separately.
Second document would be an acknowledgement that the general statement in the employee manual that expects employees to act professionally (all manuals have one of these) does exist, and understanding that sexual relations in the office have always been considered unprofessional.
If they disagreed to sign the second one then maybe I would back off on that - the main goal would be to get the first one signed. A lot would depend on the situation and how they acted. You can always modify the employee handbook later on.
I would be willing to go out on a limb and assume that a court would find that sexual relations in an office environment would indeed be considered unprofessional. Yes that is a risk but somehow I just can't bring myself to modify the employee manual to explicitly forbid this kind of behavior. I suppose that means that one of these days I'll have to hose off a copulating couple in the bathroom.
The real unfortunate thing in all of this is that once word gets out among the coworkers, they become the butt of office jokes and their credibility is shot, that's going to impact their ability to work. In all liklihood, it's going to end their careers there anyway.
Awww did the monitor on here remove all my posts?? What's the matter.... no sense of humor??? A deep need to have some kind of power in this world albeit a pathetic kind by censoring those posts online that you disagree with, or don't like?? It really must be awful to have your existence. Man, the real world is sooo much better than being online with such losers who delete and remove posts. Funny, I can have conversations with people I know and strangers and none delete nor censor me and hmm people certainly act like they enjoy me and my conversation, but you wouldn't know about such things I can tell in the real world no one gives you the time of day, nor a second glance. You totally deserve to work in cyberspace! Well pfffffft to you, keep on deleting people I am sure you have nothing better to do...oh can you say pathetic, if so do it while looking at yourself in the mirror. I swear the Internet is filled with the biggest losers and insecure oafs and oafettes!!!! I'll take face to face contact with the cool, attractive and nice people I know and meet over online boobs! Be sure to delete this and remove me from the comment areas. May karma get you and get you good!
Dismissal shouldn't ever be taken lightly. The people commenting on this article and the author of this article treat dismissal like it's nothing. Well, it's nothing to the people doing the dismissal and to the people playing armchair HR person but to the people and the families of the people being dismissed it can be and probably will be catastrophic.
Certainly the behavior was WAY out of line but I can't believe it hurt the bottom line of the company in any way. Certainly this behavior needs to stop and the people involved need to be disciplined but do you really want to ruin their careers over this regardless of anything else?
This demonizaiton of sex really needs to stop. Sure, there's a time and place for everything and that wasn't the time or the place but let the time fit the crime people. Sex is NOT evil! You are ALL here because of it. Depending on the circumstances it can be wildly inappropriate but it's not like they embezzled funds from the company!
Get a grip America! Without exception the people who are the most against sex are the same ones that are the most obsessed by sex.
Homey, you will rarely encounter anyone with more open views of sexuality than I have. The only limitation I recognize is that all participants (regardless how many or of what gender) be consenting adults of the same species. Within that, anything goes.
This issue is not about sex. It is about being on the job. If someone is compensating you to perform a certain function, and the function you perform is something different -- by your deliberate action, at the very least, you've broken a contractual agreement.
If you think termination is too harsh a response then by all means, at the company you own/run, don't fire them for it.
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given a reprimand and the rest of the workers were ordered not to
talk about it. But one guy was overheard saying they shouldn't
have got punished because they were just have lunch.
They above paragraph is true. But..I do think doing anything
inappropriate is a cause for dismissal. We are adult humans not
animals. I thing anyone and everyone can wait until work is over
and they can go to a motel, apartment anywhere in private. Don't
act like dogs.
His penalty? Loss of 10 days pay and a reduction of one rank. Oh, and he was transferred to British Columbia from Alberta.
As one would expect, there has been a national outcry.
I own a company and the "deal" I would offer the two employees is that BOTH would sign documents that would state that a) they acknowledge being engaged in the activity and b) they would never do it again. - in exchange for keeping their jobs and getting written up. Otherwise, I would see little choice but to terminate and battle it out in a court.
During the meeting have the employees acknowledge company policy on the subject and announce that you've been given information that can cost a couple of employees their jobs...but that you are an understanding and merciful employer that drawing a line in the sand.
Should any employee cross that line, it's over.
First document to be signed would be a statement that it happened. If they refused that, then I'd terminate both and take the consequences. After all, she did say that there were witnesses. Many times you can terminate the employee and tell them that you will give them a good reference and that will avoid the legal trouble, whereas if they fight you, your going to take it to court (not settle out of court) which means that while it may be costly, it will mean that there will be publically accesible documentation that any future employer can find showing that they sued you. Which will almost certainly kill their chances of ever getting hired anywhere decent. Usually when you hold a sword in one hand and a bananna in the other, the people go for the bananna.
If there were NO witnesses and it was just me alone who walked in on them, I'd probably turn on my heel and walk out and have a private conversation with each of them separately.
Second document would be an acknowledgement that the general statement in the employee manual that expects employees to act professionally (all manuals have one of these) does exist, and understanding that sexual relations in the office have always been considered unprofessional.
If they disagreed to sign the second one then maybe I would back off on that - the main goal would be to get the first one signed. A lot would depend on the situation and how they acted. You can always modify the employee handbook later on.
I would be willing to go out on a limb and assume that a court would find that sexual relations in an office environment would indeed be considered unprofessional. Yes that is a risk but somehow I just can't bring myself to modify the employee manual to explicitly forbid this kind of behavior. I suppose that means that one of these days I'll have to hose off a copulating couple in the bathroom.
The real unfortunate thing in all of this is that once word gets out among the coworkers, they become the butt of office jokes and their credibility is shot, that's going to impact their ability to work. In all liklihood, it's going to end their careers there anyway.
---
Not if they punch out first.
Certainly the behavior was WAY out of line but I can't believe it hurt the bottom line of the company in any way. Certainly this behavior needs to stop and the people involved need to be disciplined but do you really want to ruin their careers over this regardless of anything else?
This demonizaiton of sex really needs to stop. Sure, there's a time and place for everything and that wasn't the time or the place but let the time fit the crime people. Sex is NOT evil! You are ALL here because of it. Depending on the circumstances it can be wildly inappropriate but it's not like they embezzled funds from the company!
Get a grip America! Without exception the people who are the most against sex are the same ones that are the most obsessed by sex.
This issue is not about sex. It is about being on the job. If someone is compensating you to perform a certain function, and the function you perform is something different -- by your deliberate action, at the very least, you've broken a contractual agreement.
If you think termination is too harsh a response then by all means, at the company you own/run, don't fire them for it.