It may be that were putting the cart before the horse. I haven't seen any solar panel manufacturing in my neighborhood yet. I'm for green but it could be this needs to be placed on the back burner until we get health care and wallstreet out of the way.
Dude - this isn't about "green". this is about an administration that has an agenda that includes misinformation and deliberately misleading the public. Look up and see the big picture.
He hid this information to mislead you about cap and trade.
What is he hiding about health care? What about wall street bailouts? How about the stimulus?
Did you know most of the stimulus money has yet to be spent? If we are out of the recession why isn't it being pulled back in?
If 200 Billion if an 1800 a year tax, then 800 billion is a 7200 tax increase. Why are we spending it if there is no recession anymore???
We are being played for fools and your happy to go along with it.
Given the administration's proposal to auction all emission allowances, a cap-and-trade program could generate federal receipts on the order of $100 to $200 billion annually."
The only green this bill is about is the billions of greenbacks it will bring to the Fed. No increase in taxes my .....
"Dude" every admininstration that existed used misinformation and mislead the public (most especially the Bush administration). That's why the public (YOU) has a responsibility to find out the truth before they make uneducated statements about issues. Get your nose out of the wing-nut TV programs and do some research to find out the truth. Try "FactCheck.org" for truth and you'll see how your right wing-nut entertainers twist the truth and outright lie.
And, oh yeah, what's your better plan?
While I do not favor cap and trade, you do incentives and disincentives. Whether a cap and trade or carbon tax, those are your disincentives. Incentives for solar and wind help to pull the system. You have to go from both sides if we are to reduce carbon emissions. Less use of finite fossil fuels is the goal, whether you believe in Global Warming and Climate Change or not. Save the fossil fuels that took million of years to create and use and much renewable wisely and efficiently as we can. That is just the smart way to go.
woeisme1 - SO how do you answer the fact that the MOST TRANSPARENT ADMINISTRATION in history, to quote our President, is hiding facts from you so you won't actually KNOW THE TRUTH of what they are proposing.
You think because it isn't fact now that cap and trade is irrelevent.
I say if I catch you lying to me I will never trust you again.
Now how much else is he hiding? How many hidden costs in his other proposals don't we know about yet?
Geeeeesh and you guys act like Obama has already passed cap and trade. That's a long way off and your claiming already that your taxes are going up???? ROTFLMAO!@!!!
Awwwwwwwwwww.....you guys are soooooooo dramatic! You are all very good students of Glen Beck and should all recieve an award!
You must not be a parent. People are concerned about what gets passed on to their children. Yes I know this is probably hard for you to understand how people can love their children and want the best for them.... Oh thats right, you would have killed them before they would have made it into this world.
People are already losing their homes. Do you really think an extra tax burden is going to help them? How about those who havn't quite yet lost their homes but are barely making the bills? How much worse will the housing market get when these new indirect taxes are in place?
hey, non-cool... You are on the verge of sounding self-righteous over there. Based on your logic, the tighty righties don't want abortions so they have enough poor and uneducated kids to send off to war. Have you had to make that sacrifice... as a parent? If not, shut your mouth. You have no idea how you would feel if somebody justified risking your child's life with flat out lies. Blabbering some BS about somebody automatically having a propensity to kill babies just because they are non-conformist to your conservative views makes you look extremely stupid. Take a deep breath, put down your bible and .308 then look in the mirror and remind yourself that you're good enough, you're smart enough, and gosh darn it... people like you. You'll be O.K.
Talk about taxing before legislation passed, my power company is asking for an 8.8% increase to be approved by this October due to increased cost of power due to government regulation (i.e. EPA and/or Cap and Trade).
so you don't mind having the old bait and switch played on you? You don't mind being told that it won't cost us anything all the while his administration KNEW this was going to cost us all dearly???
You don't MIND being deliberately played for a fool?
Your only worried Obama has too much on his plate???
Next time you walk down the street why don't you just throw your money at people - your to witless to know your being robbed.
I am hardly witless. That's why I said that too many things on the pan make me nervous. Activity is fast and furious and things get missed even for those of us who pay attention.
And of course I mind. I believe I already posted that Obama should delay this whole thing. So what's your freakin' point anyway. You think I'm going to blindly defend Obama on this?
Seriously, though, it does crack me up to see you call someone else "witless" when you can't even get your English correct. This is your native tongue, isn't it?
Hey, Jimmy... Apparently you are too witless to realize that you needed to put another "o" in the first to(o). (pat pat pat) Poor little fellow. Cap and trade is an idea that sounds good, in theory. In practice, it gets messy real fast... Any additional expenses presented to large businesses that pollute will simply be passed along to the consumer in the price of the product he or she buys. The inherent necessity to make a profit in a capitalistic society is what makes this idea no good for our country. There are other ways to reduce emissions, starting with transportation infrastructure. Our country is in the stone age with concern to anything other than our highways (which also need lots of refurbishing and expansion). Make railways for both freight and passengers more efficient and fast, and actively work to remove the negative stigma from public transportation. People will not use something that doesn't benefit them, so the service provided by mass transit has to be preferable to driving a car... That's the difficult part. But, if the government invests in the new rail system, and allows private companies to compete for passengers; then the product available will be determined by choice. The next priority is to completely rebuild the power grid, starting yesterday. Up to 1/3 of all electricity is lost in transmission. Even if we were only able to cut that number in half, power plants across the country could operate at a 16.67% lower output... That's HUGE! Why isn't anyone talking about this? I'm not an engineer, but I'm sure that there are ways to make power lines more insulated or conductive. Last, turn the desert SW into a gigantic solar farm, the upper mid-west into a huge wind farm, and find a way to tap into the ever persistent Gulf Stream (greatest transfer of thermal energy on Earth) by using deep sea hydro-electric turbines. Maybe there are some old oil rigs sitting around that can be retro-fitted to deploy them deep under water where the current is most consistent. Continue to come up with regional solutions like these, until it is possible to start unplugging the smoke belching coal and oil powered plants one at a time. Provide massive business incentives for companies willing to raise and invest their own capital, allowing them to operate virtually tax free for as long as they continue to re-invest all profits back into the company. Once they emerge as viable and profitable entities, gradually introduce a profit tax that will generate income for the government (and pay for the new rail and power lines). Let's tap into the American spirit one more time and make some money off of this ****.
Why do all of you keep arguing about what Obama is doing when it's the Congress that actually passes these bills. You gotta start paying more attention to your Senators and Congressmen and get on them. Any President can only do what Congress lets them.
I love the fact that this is released at 9:00 PM on a tuesday night - so it can go mostly unnoticed.
Just like every other initiative by this administration, irrational spending for no useful purpose.
For the wealthy, elite, white, upper crust liberals like Joe Biden, Al Gore and the Kennedy's an extra $1800 a year is simply scotch money. Besides it will make Al Gore richer as his CO2 trading company gets all the contracts to trade for CO2 allotments - just like a little eco-Enron.
This is pure BS - Obama hid this from us - like he is hiding the real costs of his proposed health care reform.
We are ALL BEING LIED TO!!! He will bankrupt our nation and tell us it's for our own good.
He lied to us? Where were you during the election? Where were you the past two years that the democrats have been floating cap and trade? Where were you when Bush stood against this? When the republicans stood against this? I could go on and on...
Obama has been on the cap and trade band wagon since its inception. Do you guys ever read or listen to anything other than the drive by state run media?
I don't know about you guys, but I am tired of all of the "Jedi" mind tricks!
Obama: " I am not really spending all of the money....This is all for your own good....You aren't smart enough to have input on our country's wellbeing...Let the smart people handle this...Go about your merry ways...Don't worry about anything but the H1N1 flu...make sure you wash your hands....while we wipe your bottoms."
This information was NOT just released. If you'd watched C-Span just before Congress went on hiatis you would have seen the House vote which passed the House by a 'tweak'. Their version of 'Cap and Trade' (1000 + pages plus Amendments) was given to members at @ 3AM the same day as the vote and thanks to Representative John Boehner, who pulled a 'fillibusterish' move and read many parts of this bill out loud (with his comments)I was able to hear what was in this Monster. There are many more expenses for the tax payer beside taxes...there are to be panels for building permits that are now going to nationalize building codes and Sellers of homes will be 'grandfathered in' until they decide to sell. Then the property owner/seller will have to spend their own money to bring their house up to current code or they cannot close their sale. This is just one of many items that is considered in this 'cap and trade' as it is to be considered part of 'green housing'. So, I hope this information gets to the public so they can contact their representatives in the Senate, who have yet to vote on this. (Also, China and some other countries feel they are entitled to play 'Economic Catch Up' and are not willing to go along with this in their countries.)
I would prefer a Carbon Tax and a tax on imported oil. Corporations used to pay 40% of the federal budget 40 years ago and now pay 7%. It is time that those that make the most from doing business in the U.S. start paying a larger share of the costs.
I'll tell you how to pay for it -STOP BIG OIL SUBSIDIES!
TAX BIG OIL!
STOP FARMERS WELFARE!
STOP FARM SUBSIDIES!
STOP WALL STREET BONUSES!
MAKE THE RICH PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE OF TAXES!
OK - So the administration - the one that was going to be the most transparent administration in history DELIBERATELY kept inconvenient facts from you and your response is to TAX OTHERS??
Face it, we middle class are the only ones paying taxes. The poor obviously dont't because they can't. The rich don't because they write the laws, pay off politicians, and hire lawyers to hide their assets. It is time to rise up and throw off the yoke of oppression.
Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it
would go something like this:
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.
So, that?s what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. ?Since you are all such good customers,? he said, ?I?m going to reduce the cost of your daily beers by $20. Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.?
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But
what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his ?fair share??
They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted
that from everybody?s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man?s bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay. And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings). The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).
Each of the six was better off than before and the first four continued
to drink for free, but once outside the restaurant, the men began to
compare their savings. ?I only got a dollar out of the $20,? declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, ?but he got $10!? ?Yeah, that?s right, exclaimed the fifth man. ?I only saved a dollar, too.
It?s unfair that he got TEN times more than I!? ?That?s true!!? shouted
the seventh man. ?Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!? ?Wait a minute,? yelled the first four men in unison. ?We didn?t get anything at all. The system exploits the
poor!?
The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.
The next night the tenth man didn?t show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something very important?.they didn?t have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!
And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes DO get the most benefit from a tax reduction. They also PAY more than the rest. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.
You fool! Tax Big Oil. Do you know that they will just pass the cost on to the consumer which is "US". As for the Wall Street they are the same people who help put the wrong kind of change in the White house. As for farm subsidies you can thank LBJ & Jimmy Carter. I bet you do not know that Rich People pay way more than their fair share unless you have Gov't connections. When I made $40K per year I did not pay tax but now I make $175,000+ a year and I pay more than half my income in taxes.
Er, truth-b-toll, the rich pay for much more than their fair share of taxes. Do you know the numbers? If you did, you wouldn't say the rich don't pay their share. Quick numbers: Richest one percent pay 37% of all income taxes. Top 10% of income earners pay 68% of all income taxes. Bottom 50% of income earners pay just three percent of the taxes.
So let interpret that for you. 97% of all income taxes collected by the United States government are paid by the top 50% of income earners. Hmm. So exactly what does "fair share" mean to you?
agiraffedies:
You said it perfectly! We do not want for our large companies to go over seas because we cannot face the fact that they pay more, so they get larger breaks. We have to stop the entitlement mentality in America. You get what you give!!!!
@ truth-b-toll - you are brainwashed idiot loved by the Democrats. Governments already make more money from gas taxes than the oil industry has from profits for the last 30 years. $1.34 Trillion to the governments in gas tax v. $643 Billion to the oil industry. The rich already by a far higher share of the incomes taxes. The top 1% of earners pay 38% of the federal incomes taxes, the top 20% pay 80%, and the bottom 50% of incomes earners pay only 3%. And 40% of those at the bottom pay ZERO. You are definitely a sheep my friend.
I DO NOT agree with any of your statements except the Wall Street bonuses...If the Farmers can't get help than our food supply will dwindle when there is weather changes that the crops fail...if the Rich are unfairly taxed they will take business that they provide jobs over seas and all thier profits will not help the US economy. Stop listening to liberal biased news and change channels from time to time and get other opinions. All I read here is talking points that are on all the main stream media news outlets.
I DO NOT agree with any of your statements except the Wall Street bonuses...If the Farmers can't get help than our food supply will dwindle when there is weather changes that the crops fail...if the Rich are unfairly taxed they will take business that they provide jobs over seas and all thier profits will not help the US economy. Stop listening to liberal biased news and change channels from time to time and get other opinions. All I read here is talking points that are on all the main stream media news outlets.
agiraffedies - Sorry, your beer drinking story, as cute as it is, does not work, because you neglected to mention that the rich guy is getting more beer than anyone else. A rich person uses almost all publicly funded infrastructure more than a poor person. To protect his property, he makes more use of the police, fire departments, and courts. To protect his investments, he makes more use of the courts, regulatory agencies, etc. To conduct business, he makes more use of the transportation infrastructure, highways, etc. Basic conservative, capitalist logic, based on Adam Smith, which I agree with, says that the person using something should be the one to pay. If you divide up the beer payment , using your flawed "logic", the poor person would end up subsidizing the rich one.
in reply to agiraffedies:
I just love your comment. With this, even the Dems should get it! Even if you don't beat the 10th man up - he just decides to leave the country to do business somewhere else or is tired of adding poor people at the botton that drink for free - the middle class looses. Well done...
in reply to: by txlonghorn September 18, 2009 8:03 AM EDT So what is your goal? 9 people drink free in the 10th pays for everyone?
When was the last time you got a job from anyone making less money than you do? It doesn't happen (only in socialism) and that's where we are headed.....The story about Robin Hood is nice but have you ever thought about what happened after he left? The poor had bigger issues then before because there was nothing else to redistribute....
I'll tell you how to pay for it -STOP BIG OIL SUBSIDIES! TAX BIG OIL! And we all pay more for gas, hurts the poor the most
STOP FARMERS WELFARE! And we all pay more for food, hurts the poor the most
STOP FARM SUBSIDIES! and we all pay more for food, hurts the poor the most STOP WALL STREET BONUSES! And we all get a smaller return on our savings, hurts the poor the most
MAKE THE RICH PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE OF TAXES!
They already do, and if the taxes go up for them, they'll just move making the tax burden on the poor go up.
Do you have any other solutions? Preferably some that require some though.
Amen. I cannot see how even a loyal follower can disagree with the fact that our president lied. Yes, he is owed respect, we did elect him. But nowhere did we give him permission to lie without risk of rebuke.
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He hid this information to mislead you about cap and trade.
What is he hiding about health care? What about wall street bailouts? How about the stimulus?
Did you know most of the stimulus money has yet to be spent? If we are out of the recession why isn't it being pulled back in?
If 200 Billion if an 1800 a year tax, then 800 billion is a 7200 tax increase. Why are we spending it if there is no recession anymore???
We are being played for fools and your happy to go along with it.
The only green this bill is about is the billions of greenbacks it will bring to the Fed. No increase in taxes my .....
And, oh yeah, what's your better plan?
You think because it isn't fact now that cap and trade is irrelevent.
I say if I catch you lying to me I will never trust you again.
Now how much else is he hiding? How many hidden costs in his other proposals don't we know about yet?
Awwwwwwwwwww.....you guys are soooooooo dramatic! You are all very good students of Glen Beck and should all recieve an award!
Link: http://www.azchamber.com/news/view_article.cfm?ID=380
I don't know but I get nervous when too many things are in the frying pan at the same time.
You don't MIND being deliberately played for a fool?
Your only worried Obama has too much on his plate???
Next time you walk down the street why don't you just throw your money at people - your to witless to know your being robbed.
And of course I mind. I believe I already posted that Obama should delay this whole thing. So what's your freakin' point anyway. You think I'm going to blindly defend Obama on this?
You mis-judge me. That makes you wit-less.
your to witless"
It's "you're too witless".
Seriously, though, it does crack me up to see you call someone else "witless" when you can't even get your English correct. This is your native tongue, isn't it?
Just like every other initiative by this administration, irrational spending for no useful purpose.
For the wealthy, elite, white, upper crust liberals like Joe Biden, Al Gore and the Kennedy's an extra $1800 a year is simply scotch money. Besides it will make Al Gore richer as his CO2 trading company gets all the contracts to trade for CO2 allotments - just like a little eco-Enron.
This is pure BS - Obama hid this from us - like he is hiding the real costs of his proposed health care reform.
We are ALL BEING LIED TO!!! He will bankrupt our nation and tell us it's for our own good.
They just intend to fund MORE GREEN jobs krap that doesn't exist with it."
Gee, Rowdy, didn't you say you were leaving?
Obama has been on the cap and trade band wagon since its inception. Do you guys ever read or listen to anything other than the drive by state run media?
God help us!
Elections have consequences.
Obama: " I am not really spending all of the money....This is all for your own good....You aren't smart enough to have input on our country's wellbeing...Let the smart people handle this...Go about your merry ways...Don't worry about anything but the H1N1 flu...make sure you wash your hands....while we wipe your bottoms."
Seriously, the dems and the repubs both are awful with all of the expenses...
.
TAX BIG OIL!
STOP FARMERS WELFARE!
STOP FARM SUBSIDIES!
STOP WALL STREET BONUSES!
MAKE THE RICH PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE OF TAXES!
Dude - get a grip.
STOP BIG GOVERNMENT
then you won't have to worry about the other ones on your list. I am sure this was just an oversight - happy to help you out.
would go something like this:
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.
So, that?s what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. ?Since you are all such good customers,? he said, ?I?m going to reduce the cost of your daily beers by $20. Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.?
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But
what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his ?fair share??
They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted
that from everybody?s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man?s bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.
And so:
The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).
Each of the six was better off than before and the first four continued
to drink for free, but once outside the restaurant, the men began to
compare their savings.
?I only got a dollar out of the $20,? declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, ?but he got $10!? ?Yeah, that?s right, exclaimed the fifth man. ?I only saved a dollar, too.
It?s unfair that he got TEN times more than I!? ?That?s true!!? shouted
the seventh man. ?Why should he get $10 back when I got only two?
The wealthy get all the breaks!? ?Wait a minute,? yelled the first four men in unison. ?We didn?t get anything at all. The system exploits the
poor!?
The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.
The next night the tenth man didn?t show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something very important?.they didn?t have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!
And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes DO get the most benefit from a tax reduction. They also PAY more than the rest. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.
So let interpret that for you. 97% of all income taxes collected by the United States government are paid by the top 50% of income earners. Hmm. So exactly what does "fair share" mean to you?
You said it perfectly! We do not want for our large companies to go over seas because we cannot face the fact that they pay more, so they get larger breaks. We have to stop the entitlement mentality in America. You get what you give!!!!
maybe you need to give your self some more "though"!
A rich person uses almost all publicly funded infrastructure more than a poor person. To protect his property, he makes more use of the police, fire departments, and courts. To protect his investments, he makes more use of the courts, regulatory agencies, etc. To conduct business, he makes more use of the transportation infrastructure, highways, etc.
Basic conservative, capitalist logic, based on Adam Smith, which I agree with, says that the person using something should be the one to pay. If you divide up the beer payment , using your flawed "logic", the poor person would end up subsidizing the rich one.
I just love your comment. With this, even the Dems should get it! Even if you don't beat the 10th man up - he just decides to leave the country to do business somewhere else or is tired of adding poor people at the botton that drink for free - the middle class looses. Well done...
So what is your goal? 9 people drink free in the 10th pays for everyone?
When was the last time you got a job from anyone making less money than you do? It doesn't happen (only in socialism) and that's where we are headed.....The story about Robin Hood is nice but have you ever thought about what happened after he left? The poor had bigger issues then before because there was nothing else to redistribute....
TAX BIG OIL!
And we all pay more for gas, hurts the poor the most
STOP FARMERS WELFARE!
And we all pay more for food, hurts the poor the most
STOP FARM SUBSIDIES!
and we all pay more for food, hurts the poor the most
STOP WALL STREET BONUSES!
And we all get a smaller return on our savings, hurts the poor the most
MAKE THE RICH PAY THEIR FAIR SHARE OF TAXES!
They already do, and if the taxes go up for them, they'll just move
making the tax burden on the poor go up.
Do you have any other solutions? Preferably some that
require some though.