Comments on: Desperate Automakers Launch PR Campaign

Big Three Deploy Grassroots Tactics, Web Sites, Newspaper Ads For Bailout Help

[rickwar]

SO we have no problem spending 2 trillion on a illegal occupation of an innocent country and we don''''t want to help our own people? Shame on U.S.


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Posted by noloyalisti at 04:12 PM : Nov 20, 2008

And that does not count what we pay to defend other countries that could defend themselves.

People Conveniently forget the Iraq debacle, lets do this take their 72 bil in surplus and give 25 bil to the automakers.

[McHineguy]

I''''ve posted accurate information, but you either can''''t properly read a table of numbers, or you won''''t.

I don''''t know what your problem is, but I *do* know that if the future decisions of our government depend upon people who can''''t read column of numbers and pick the largest, we are all toast.

Ever see the film "Idiocracy"?

Add that to your research.


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Posted by justaguy11 at 04:06 PM : Nov 20, 2008

I can read the numbers. I did read the numbers. You and I are playing word games where I speak of "cars" (not trucks) and you speak of "vehicles". So, Ill cede the point and say the Big 3 makes more "vehicles". Im not sure why this is important because I still claim the Big 3 are losing the competition. Moreover, Im concerned for why and what we can do about it. Now while you have the attention of the American people and its govermnet.

Doesnt matter. I will not continue this discussion since it has become name calling. Hope you can convince others of your predjudices. Goodby.

[rickwar]

Your box is a coffin - no thanks.
You sound like some Big 3 lobbyist con dip stik!


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Posted by TheMasses10 at 03:54 PM : Nov 20, 2008

Guess you forget, I own 3 of my own businesses, none affliated with the auto business in the last decade.

And you still sound like the same idiot that posted away during the election with BS.

[noloyalisti]

SO we have no problem spending 2 trillion on a illegal occupation of an innocent country and we don''t want to help our own people? Shame on U.S.

[rickwar]

You are right, the loan is the cheapest way for the near term. But there are much bigger problems for the long term and they need to be addressed or there is no long term future for the Big 3. These larger problems include government meddling These will not be addressed unless the Congress, the UAW, and Big 3 management are willing to consider alternatives.

Now is the time. No bailout loans until there is a new plan.

Posted by machineguy

Agreed, some (not all) of the UAW problem is behind them. Normal operating costs are absorbable, retirement has been addressed with the UAW, they take over the retirement next year.

CEO compensation, is a board/stockholder decision, not governments.

Uncompetitive policies caused by government regulations need to be addressed.

Since 1964 when the first "safety regulations" went into effect they were "mandated by the government" but they were not funded. Who paid? We did in the increasing cost of the product. Many forget that until just a few years ago the imports got an additional 2 years to meet those regulations. Who absorbed the cost? Detroit, then us. Talk about uncompetitive policies.

GM is the biggest supplier of healthcare in the country, the cost is huge, the imports, unless made here have Government healthcare and Government retirement

Have the big three made wrong decisions? You bet. Are they competitive? You bet. 18.9 mil vehicles worldwide that''s the big 3 71 mil vehicles sold. Not a bad %

[McHineguy]

It must be soemthign else (government policies maybe?).
Posted by machineguy at 03:38 PM : Nov 20, 2008

Gosh, d''''ya THINK??? Our entire nation revolves around the Wal-mart mentality. Until we get rid of that, the manufacturing sector is doomed.



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Posted by txgrouch2007 at 03:53 PM : Nov 20, 2008

I think you and I agree on this. Just need to start somewhere. I suggest it starts in Congress with these words; "get out of the way".

[jsutaguy]

Bush and Friends is true. Paulson could take 25 Billion of the ALREADY FUNDED multi-trillions and make this loan.

I stand by my Bush and Friends comment.

In addtion, I stand by my data showing that the top selling VEHICLES in the USA, which outsell any other type of vehicle, including the Honda Civic you (incorrectly) claimed was the best-seller.

I''ve posted accurate information, but you either can''t properly read a table of numbers, or you won''t.

I don''t know what your problem is, but I *do* know that if the future decisions of our government depend upon people who can''t read column of numbers and pick the largest, we are all toast.

Ever see the film "Idiocracy"?

Add that to your research.

[McHineguy]

I think the Wal-Mart mentality will end when enough people lose their jobs to it and FINALLY notice that "cheaper is better" is NOT the way to run an economy.

Or, maybe they''''ll just blame one political party or the other for losing their jobs, and we''''ll be stuck in the Wal-mart world FOREVER - even after shopping at Wal-mart becomes more than they can afford anymore.



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Posted by txgrouch2007 at 03:56 PM : Nov 20, 2008

Paying higher prices wont fix the economy. It will just make us need more money to pay higher prices. The world will buy even less of our products when we raise those prices.

We have to find a way to be more productive. Better factories, less government, easier work, but more of it. Otherwise, it is innevitable that the rest of the world will just do fine without us.

today we are the number one economy in the world, they want us. But Japan is number 2 and Korea is coming on fast. China is hot on our heels too. These guys dont car about our tarrifs (that just raises the price that you and I pay) or our CAFE rules, or our EPA or OSHA or any of those things. They buy from us what when its cheaper or better. We do the same.

[McHineguy]

Despite the massive economic failure

...

Vehicle Sales thru 10/31/2008
Ford F - Series PU 436,022
Chevrolet Silverado PU 402,191
Toyota Camry / Solara 386,118
Toyota Corolla / Matrix 307,071



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Posted by justaguy11 at 03:39 PM : Nov 20, 2008

Why does this argument have to begin with false accusations about "Bush and friends"? Its a false statement (the meltdown was from bad mortgages created by Democrats policies and their insistance that everything was just fine) statement about peripheral issues (we ARE talking about the Big 3 here) that detracts from making progress.

Your statistics are correct. US automakers are still the number one manufacturer of pickup trucks. I also think they are number one when it comes to Humvees too. Maybe even SUV''s.

But the competition has moved to smaller cars. They havent.

I believe (still researching it) the primary reasons for this is:
1. The assembly lines are too complex for a small, cheap car,
2. Labor rates do not scale down as the car becomes cheaper. There is nearly as much labor in a Ford Fusion as in an F-500 or maybe even an F-150.
3. Government meddling (CAFE, EPA, etc) always seems to add to production costs, never helps. Instead of demands for CAFE why not tax incentives?

At least these three issues need to be resolved soon.

[txgrouch2007]

I think the Wal-Mart mentality will end when enough people lose their jobs to it and FINALLY notice that "cheaper is better" is NOT the way to run an economy.

Or, maybe they''ll just blame one political party or the other for losing their jobs, and we''ll be stuck in the Wal-mart world FOREVER - even after shopping at Wal-mart becomes more than they can afford anymore.

[cheteunice]

The Big 3 have money for a PR campaign?

[txgrouch2007]

It must be soemthign else (government policies maybe?).
Posted by machineguy at 03:38 PM : Nov 20, 2008

Gosh, d''ya THINK??? Our entire nation revolves around the Wal-mart mentality. Until we get rid of that, the manufacturing sector is doomed.

[txgrouch2007]

It never has been truly competative, other countries have subsidized their auto industires, we never really applied tariffs correctly
Posted by rickwar at 03:41 PM : Nov 20, 2008

BINGO! And, realistically, do you expect ANY of that to change soon????

This is just one of the multitude of show-stoppers that make it impossible for US manufacturing to recover - EVER.

Until we eliminate this Wal-mart mentality in this country, we are doomed to lose our manufacturing sector completely.

[cheteunice]

The Big have money for a PR campaign?

[rickwar]

Bailout, loan, handout - whatever! It''''s $ coming from the taxpayer (me) and I''''ve had a gutfull - no more!


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Posted by TheMasses10 at 03:44 PM : Nov 20, 2008

Poor baby, why are you complaining? Bush gave you tax breaks, still have another year of those, and he gave you 600 bucks per person.

You do realize don''t you in a normal market the automakers could loan money from just about any financial house? Not today. You do understand "LOAN" don''t you? It''s money paid back with interest.

I''ve heard the cry, "GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO BE RUN LIKE A BUSINESS!" Well, here''s your chance to make a loan make money on interest and act LIKE A BUSINESS. They could make the loan, factor it off to a lending institution and repay the taxpayer within weeks.

The problem is this: Here the box, your inside, you can''t figure out how to get out. Think outside the box.

[McHineguy]

As a banker you''''d like assets, have none, no loan.

The risk for this loan is small compared to what would happen if they go to Bankruptcy.



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Posted by rickwar at 03:36 PM : Nov 20, 2008

You are right, the loan is the cheapest way for the near term. But there are much bigger problems for the long term and they need to be addressed or there is no long term future for the Big 3. These larger problems include government meddling and uncompetitive policies. These will not be addressed unless the Congress, the UAW, and Big 3 managemnet are willing to consider alternatives.

Now is the time. No bailout loans until there is a new plan.

[rickwar]

OK, let''''s get down to brass tacks here. HOW MANY DECADES have we been saying they need to regain their competitive position???


It never has been truly competative, other countries have subsidized their auto industires, we never really applied tariffs correctly,We''ve yes We''ve given the imports more than favorable "incentives" to build plants here, yet now we balk at the big 3, strange.

It''s time to stop talking "Bailout" and discuss the real terms "Loan"

[jsutaguy]

Despite the massive economic failure caused by GW Bush and friends, Ford and GM STILL have the #1 and #2 best selling vehicles in the USA AGAIN:
http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autosales.html

Vehicle Sales thru 10/31/2008
Ford F - Series PU 436,022
Chevrolet Silverado PU 402,191
Toyota Camry / Solara 386,118
Toyota Corolla / Matrix 307,071

[McHineguy]

the Big 3 needs to recover its competitive position. THEN a bailout could work.
Posted by machineguy at 03:12 PM : Nov 20, 2008

The auto makers can NEVER recover their competitive position. They are buried under the same regulatory costs as all our other industries, which are now gasping their last breath thanks to foreign competition.

It''''s just like the steel industry in the 1970''''s. They wouldn''''t benefit from modernizing, so they just stay put and wait for the axe to fall.

The car makers will go like the steel industry, the memory chip makers, the television makers, and any number of other manufacturing industries that have been wiped out by foreign competition.

That giant flapping sound is the CHICKENS COMING HOME TO ROOST from the stupid American quest for CHEAPER, EVER CHEAPER...




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Posted by txgrouch2007 at 03:19 PM : Nov 20, 2008

Sad to say, you are right unless we do something different in America. When do we start? What should it be?

I have been saying exactly the same thing as your post for some time now. But I dont think its innevitable that we lose all our manufacturing. We need to change some of the rules, taxes, and policies that are driving away our business. Our companies need to be competitive again. We cant say that ALL of them were badly managed. It must be soemthign else (government policies maybe?).

[rickwar]

So, now, we have companies that need to regain their competitive positions so they can repay the loans they ask for and go on to be profitable again.

Posted by machineguy at 03:27 PM : Nov 20, 2008

All the noise over this loan, do some quick math. 37 to 40 Bil company per year, 2009 UAW takes over retirement, lowering price per vehicle, Delphi deal done and finished. Reduction in expense with just those 2 items.

GM wanted not 25 Bil they were thinking their slice might be 10 to 12 Bil. 10 year repayment plan 1.2 bil per year. GM performance prior to financial meltdown 50 to 55 bil per year.

They were going to issue 1 mil in new stock next year then the bottom fell out. GM stock was at 10 and going up then so let''s say ten. Do the math.

GM has tanagible assets after Bankruptcy perhaps they would not. Do the math.

As a banker you''d like assets, have none, no loan.

The risk for this loan is small compared to what would happen if they go to Bankruptcy.