Comments on: As Auto Bailout Hopes Fade, So Do Stocks

Dow Plunges More Than 400 Points As Prospects Dim For Immediate Lifeline For Automakers

[stevedoer]

NO BAILOUT.. If the airlines can do chap 13 and come back then the auto industry can do the same. Do away with the high priced labor unions and the GOLDEN PARACHUTES FOR THE FATASS PIG CEO''S. Maybe the parachutes should be made of real gold and push their ***** out of the private learjets they flew in begging with hats in hand.... also F*** EDS and HP..we can hope Rittenmier chokes on a BIG FAT HOTDOG.. GOOD EATING CORPORATE PIG....

[humanavance]

"...That was my point. We can NEVER stop foreign countries from using slave or inhumane labor. And we can''t cut off imports from these countries, or Wal-mart would go out of business and the masses would scream...."
txgrouch2007


You''ve got to be kidding.

Of course we can stop trading with criminal countries, this very moment.

We are America.

Not NAZI Germany.
ST


"Ahhh, my poor America lost.

Once the land of the free and home of the brave, we are now the land of secret prisons, illegal abduction, indefinite incarceration without charge or representation, torture, murder, universal surveillance, and preemptive war of conquest.

But that didn''t seem to be enough to wake us up.

Perhaps waking up to the fact that our economy has been destroyed, and that we are now literally owned by the Chinese and other foreign enemies, might finally cause us to think, and act.

Perhaps the founding fathers were right after all, and Bush and all of his accomplices should be impeached and tried for betraying them, and our beloved Constitution.

Or perhaps we will simply continue to head full speed down the path to our own destruction.

It''s up to us fellow Americans. Do we value our freedom and humanity so little that we no longer deserve them? Or will we once again stand to defend and uphold American liberty?"
SearingTruth

A Future of the Brave

[txgrouch2007]

We do not suffer from a lack of innovation, simply a lack of equity.

Free trade has delivered us to our grave, because a just and humane people cannot compete with those who employ slave and/or inhumane labor.
Posted by Humanavance at 10:03 PM : Nov 20, 2008

That was my point. We can NEVER stop foreign countries from using slave or inhumane labor. And we can''t cut off imports from these countries, or Wal-mart would go out of business and the masses would scream.

WHAT innovation has occurred recently? I''m talking about radical change like going from relays to vacuum tubes to transistors to microchips. Each transition brought an orders-of-magnintude improvement in performance. Not fifty percent faster, not twice as fast, but tens or hundreds or thousands of times faster.

What similar innovation has occurred since the microchip? The PC revolution was a brief period of innovation, popular because it opened vast new horizons of accounting fraud. But since about 1990, we haven''t invented anything really new and revolutionary. Just incremental improvement on existing technologies.

For sure, those incremental improvements by factors of fifty percent and two times better have led to impressive new products. This, coupled with cheap foreign manufacturing, has made startling changes in the kinds of technology that''s affordable for the ordinary person.

But none of this approaches the invention of the transistor.

[humanavance]

"...The answer - take the shackles off the innovators and let them innovate. Let us find a radically new technology that the rest of the world can''t copy...."
txgrouch2007


Huh? That''s what got us to where we are today. We do not suffer from a lack of innovation, simply a lack of equity.

Free trade has delivered us to our grave, because a just and humane people cannot compete with those who employ slave and/or inhumane labor.

The answer, obviously, is to implement fair trade, where we demand the same standards for foreign workers as we do for our own.

And refuse to trade with those who would drive our middle class into eternal poverty, as theirs have been.

Ahhhh, truth.

It certainly is refreshing.
ST


"A principle, sacrificed, is rarely resurrected."
SearingTruth

A Future of the Brave

[humanavance]

"The greatest persuader is the ever encroaching power of truth."
SearingTruth

A Future of the Brave

[txgrouch2007]

Our only hope is to outsmart them. For all of history that has meant better/smarter tools. ... Put us all out of work with GAURANTEES of a better one and more production. that is how I think we find optimum.
Posted by machineguy at 09:10 PM : Nov 20, 2008

Now I KNOW you''re a tool salesman! LOL!

No, throughout history prosperity has come from better IDEAS. Tools are a way of carrying out ideas. The Wright brothers used common tools to make their new invention, the airplane. And the wind tunnel. And they made a lot of mistakes along the way, but they succeeded anyway.

The USA was prosperous because we had abundant natural resources and free, independent thinkers who thought up new ideas faster than the rest of the world could keep up with us.

Thanks to the lawsuits and the regulations and the short term investors, the pace of innovation has slowed down. The rest of the world caught up with us. Once we start competing head to head with the lesser developed nations, we are toast.

The answer - take the shackles off the innovators and let them innovate. Let us find a radically new technology that the rest of the world can''t copy.

There are still open frontiers of research in the world of science that could have practical applications. We have still only scratched the surface of quantum mechanics, for example.

But nobody is doing large-scale research in this area that might lead to new technologies. Until somebody does, we''re stuck in this rut.

[txgrouch2007]

And there is no better recipe for disaster than corporate capitalism on the way up, accompanied by corporate socialism on the way down."
SearingTruth, September 2008
Posted by Humanavance at 09:36 PM : Nov 20, 2008

Oh, man. That was so LAME!

Usually your stuff is much better than that. What happened? Having a bad day?

Another victim of the bad economy.

[humanavance]

"Fellow Citizens,

Until prices are brought into line with wages we will have no economic recovery.

This means that a falsely valued $750,000.00 home will have to be brought down to its real value, $75,000.00.

And all the governments of the world pouring all the cash taxpayers of the world have left into an effort to sustain false prices will fail.

That''s why socialism, communism, and fascism have always failed.

Because their economic, as well as humanitarian, models do.

And there is no better recipe for disaster than corporate capitalism on the way up, accompanied by corporate socialism on the way down."
SearingTruth, September 2008

A Future of the Brave

[McHineguy]

Gotta go. Dinner calls. Thanks for the civil discussions.

[McHineguy]

There is some OPTIMUM LEVEL of technology and productivity that provides the highest standard of living. If productivity gets LOWER or HIGHER, our standard of living suffers.

It isn''''t "all or nothing." It''''s "in moderation" that''''s the key.

Technology becomes counterproductive when it results in a LOWER standard of living. But then, that''''s self-evident, isn''''t it.




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Posted by txgrouch2007 at 08:30 PM : Nov 20, 2008

Now we have a debate I cant support as well as Id like. You are right, we need to establish a SUPPORTABLE standard of living and I think it has to be an ever improving one. My example of robots was a bit over the top but I said it to make the point that I keep returning to. That is, we HAVE to compete with the rest of the world and some of those guys will do anything for a "buck". Our only hope is to outsmart them. For all of history that has meant better/smarter tools. When our tools get so good we dont need the worker we need to move on to a better job for him, not lay him off so he doesnt do ANYTHING. Example, some of our competitors villages have a water carrier or water boy. We have running water so that person can help us make things. We need to apply that to EVERY part of our work force. Put us all out of work with GAURANTEES of a better one and more production. that is how I think we find optimum.

[onarollagain]

As for Wall Street...guess the voters who didn''''t vote for Obama have the upper hand as wise investors. They are not keeping their money in WS because of fears of Obamas policies---if Barack were to address the nation tomorrow and say he was giving up the entitlements, the tax cuts and capital gains tax increases he promised, guaranteed the market would rebound immediately and the smart investors with money would start spending and the economy will change. Where is he anyway....why hasn''t he appointed his head of the treasury....he''s a wimp and is afraid he may choose the wrong person...well he''s had 18 months to think about it....so step up to the plate, be a man, make a decision, exude confidence to the American investors so we can get on with making keeping the US of A alive.

[devilspeaks]

Your on the right track for my way as you already know? The SELF way?
Soon you will be down here with me separated from the love of God you could of had had you called out to Jesus to save you. Your need because you are a sinner!


Good with SELF you will spend a glorious eternity alone without the love of God if you so chose at the time of your exit out of your life and into the life of darkness? Excellent! No hope of love no hope of assurance no hope of joy etc etc just alone with no God ever to tell you what to do?

[devilspeaks]

Your on the right track for my way as you already know? The SELF way?
Soon you will be down here with me separated from the love of God you could of had had you called out to Jesus to save you. Your need because you are a sinner!


Good with SELF you will spend a glorious eternity alone without the love of God if you so chose at the time of your exit out of your life and into the life of darkness? Excellent! No hope of love no hope of assurance no hope of joy etc etc just alone with no God ever to tell you what to do?

[devilspeaks]

The bible is against me and I hate it?
When it talks about Gods chosen people I get mad as hell.
The Lord Jesus even quoted it to me when I tempted him in the wilderness and I had to flee?
The bible is the only place where it talks about Gods chosen people. I rather have any good than Gods absolute right and wrong?
Because self then rules by its own understanding with God not being in the picture?
My hope is that no one else will turn to Jesus as their sin bearer so that they can have eternal life here and there.


I influence peoples motives without them realizing it is me, the devil, thats doing it.

[txgrouch2007]

However globally there will always be a balance between consumption and production - which means that there must be an imbalance in favour of production in some countries
Posted by cause_y at 08:23 PM : Nov 20, 2008

Yah - in the countries that routinely kill their workers with unsafe working conditions, kill their citizens by destroying the environment, and deprive their people of protection from unscrupulous companies like the ones that killed babies with melamine in the milk.

If we want to compete with that country, WE ALL HAVE TO LIVE like the people of that country. How many babies do you want to kill to make us more competitive in the global economy?

Like I said: we need to decide what we REALLY WANT. We need to FULLY DEFINE IT. Then we need to DO IT.

Do we want to kill babies to compete in the world? Or do we want to save our babies?

It''s that simple.

[txgrouch2007]

Ive had this discussion before many times. Heres the dillema:
If the boss owns the robots and fires all the employees, who buys his products? No one has a job.

You cant accept one tool (say a power drill or even a hammer) and reject another (in the extreme a robot).
Posted by machineguy at 08:22 PM : Nov 20, 2008

Yah, that was exactly my point. And yet, we''ve been using tools like hammers and drills for over a century, and it seemed to IMPROVE our standard of living.

What''s the difference between a drill and a robot?

THE WORKER GETS PAID for using the drill. NO WORKER GETS PAID for the robot''s work.

There is some OPTIMUM LEVEL of technology and productivity that provides the highest standard of living. If productivity gets LOWER or HIGHER, our standard of living suffers.

It isn''t "all or nothing." It''s "in moderation" that''s the key.

Technology becomes counterproductive when it results in a LOWER standard of living. But then, that''s self-evident, isn''t it.

[txgrouch2007]

But, if you refuse to pay for anything from China you have to build everything you want by yourself. Posted by machineguy at 08:18 PM : Nov 20, 2008

OK, this is where you keep getting confused. THAT WOULD BE A GOOD THING. Jobs here is GOOD, not BAD.

But evidently you can think only in extremes, so it''s very difficult to discuss basic principles with you.

[mikezembill]

txgrouch2007 you are right now all we have to do is keep wall-mart going buy buying the imports from CHINA.

[McHineguy]

Well, except one person - the boss, who turns the robots on and then goes home and collects "profit sharing" from all the goods and services made by the robots.

If anyone can buy them, that is. Which they can''''t. Because they''''ve all been replaced by robots.

Robots. Bad idea. Think harder.




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Posted by txgrouch2007 at 08:15 PM : Nov 20, 2008

Ive had this discussion before many times. Heres the dillema:
If the boss owns the robots and fires all the employees, who buys his products? No one has a job.

You cant accept one tool (say a power drill or even a hammer) and reject another (in the extreme a robot). If you do, "the competition" will use the tools you reject and outproduce you. their standard of living will continue upwards. Yours will start looking like the native of some third world tribe.

[txgrouch2007]

What I''m trying to clue you in on is, WE NEED TO DECIDE WHAT''S REALLY IMPORTANT TO US. THEN WE NEED TO DO THAT. WHATEVER IT IS.

And we need a COMPLETE set of goals that will FULLY DEFINE our future. Not just one or two "must haves" and leave it to "someone else" to figure out the rest.

YOU DO IT. YOU DO IT ALL. YOU DECIDE WHAT WE REALLY WANT IN OUR WORLD. ALL OF IT. EVERYTHNG. NOTHING LEFT OUT.

Figure out a system that works without contradicting itself or defeatng itself.

You''ll get a Nobel prize if you can do it.

And the jokers in Congress decided to tear up the paper for the plan that had been worked out meticulously over the hundreds of years of the existence of our nation. These "Masters of the Universe" decided they could do it better.

Now look where the Masters of the Universe have brought us.

I say, let''s go back to the old plan. If anyone remembers what it was.