Comments on: Second Cup Café: Christine Ebersole

Tony Winner Stars in "Grey Gardens" On Broadway

[iwm73]

"Should we tell gay people not to be offended by the "f" word because of what it DID mean?"

No, but the meaning of the word you choose to be offended by hasn't fundamentally changed, nor is it used to attack Christians, unlike the times I've had people intentionally try to inflict emotional (sometimes backed up by physical) damage by using that particular "F-word".

"Regardless of what YOU say the word means, it IS offensive to Christians."

Try "what Merriam-Webster or any reputable dictionary says the word means", and don't assume I'm not a Christian (I taught Sunday school in the United Church of Canada for several years). It's not offensive to all Christians, it's offensive to *you* and a subset of like-mindedly parochial people. Comparing it to the N- or F-words is misguided and offensive to those of us who have been subjected to one or both.

[iwm73]

"I'm not trying to censor what you can see."

"[...]or the "potentially" offensive words should be omitted."

These two statements are incompatible and show your lack of understanding of censorship.

[wdk921]

To all those who were offended by this:

You can't be serious. How were you this offended by this performance? I am a Christian, and I try to follow the Ten Commandments, but this did not offend me. This song was directly taken from the documentary Grey Gardens, Ms. Ebersole did not make this up. It is how the song was written. If you were so offended by it that you had to write to CBS complainig, I feel sorry that you could not see past the word and appreciate Ms. Ebersole's truly brilliant performance. She is a very classy performer who gave a stunning performance. And if those offended have children who heard the word, you know something? They are going to hear this word sometime in their lives. You can't shield them from everything. It's not like they'll turn into devils by hearing one word. Honestly.

As I said before, Ms. Ebersole gave a fantastic performance. I hope she wins the Tony and I cannot wait to see her in the show!

[momx6boys]

Let's use my own words from a post earlier than that one:

Posted by Momx6boys at 12:47 PM : Feb 17, 2007 ... To any Christian or anyone who has a strong belief in God, this is one of the most insulting profanities around. It amazes me that if when an insult is made regarding almost any other religion, the incident would make national news, but insult a Christian and everyone wants to act as though it's nothing."

Posted by IWM73 at 10:57 PM : Feb 19, 2007 - "No, I'm saying your beliefs blind you to the actual meaning of the word, both generally and in terms of its importance to the story and the song in "Grey Gardens"."

Once upon a time the word g-a-y meant happy, alive exuberant. But now it also means homosexual. When I was young f-a-g meant 'to tire', but it also has a different meaning now. Meanings of words change. Should we tell gay people not to be offended by the "f" word because of what it DID mean? Regardless of what YOU say the word means, it IS offensive to Christians.

[momx6boys]

And I think you miss the point. Twenty years ago, that song would not have been allowed to air on regular television. Why? Because there were limits as to what could be said and shown on TV. Why have things changed? Not because the content has gotten any better, but because people kept letting little things slip by that offended them. They did nothing.

I'm not trying to censor what you can see. You can go see her on Broadway or you could watch her on HBO. Actually, you can watch her on regular TV. But IF she's going to be singing a song, with "potentially" offensive lyrics, there should either be a disclaimer, another song chosen or the "potentially" offensive words should be omitted.

I have family members who curse like sailors, but when they're around me or in my home, they watch their language. Not because I'm censoring them, but out of respect for me.

CBS was a "guest in my home." I'm simply letting them know that something happened that made me wish I hadn't "invited them in that morning."

They need to consider everyone who might be watching. Christine could have sang another song and you would have still enjoyed her performance.

[iwm73]

"Interesting. So what you're basically saying to me is the only reason I'm offended is because I'm not smart enough to understand what the phrase really means? So, if I were "enlightened" in my knowledge and world experience, as you are, the word would mean nothing to me, as it means nothing to you?"

No, I'm saying your beliefs blind you to the actual meaning of the word, both generally and in terms of its importance to the story and the song in "Grey Gardens".

"Are you also saying that I tried to imply this mattered to me without "exposing" myself as a Christian? I completely disagree, but the thought is somewhat amusing. Wow, an "undercover Christian." How scary!!"

To use your own words, "Why do so many people assume that if you have a moral objection to something that you're a religious fundamentalist? There are many, many people with morals who have no specific religous preference at all." How is that *not* demurring on the question?

"Are you perhaps a supporter of the infamous NEA? The same group that uses tax payer dollars to promote as art what most people would consider offensive?"

I'm Canadian (although a CBS viewer), but I don't think that (even publicly-funded) art should be subject to censorship.

"The official decency "standards" may have taken a dive, but I still have a complete understanding of what offends ME."

I think we *all* understand what offends you, momx6boys, but that doesn't make you or your beliefs any more "decent" than the rest of us.

[evans542]

You miss the point , Momx6boys
You have every right to be offended and express your feelings
But you DONT have the right to try to censor what I can see because your sensibilities are upset

[momx6boys]

Interesting. So what you're basically saying to me is the only reason I'm offended is because I'm not smart enough to understand what the phrase really means? So, if I were "enlightened" in my knowledge and world experience, as you are, the word would mean nothing to me, as it means nothing to you?

Are you also saying that I tried to imply this mattered to me without "exposing" myself as a Christian? I completely disagree, but the thought is somewhat amusing. Wow, an "undercover Christian." How scary!!

Are you perhaps a supporter of the infamous NEA? The same group that uses tax payer dollars to promote as art what most people would consider offensive?

The official decency "standards" may have taken a dive, but I still have a complete understanding of what offends ME.

[iwm73]

"And what about the part where I asked why you feel the need to rip me about for feeling the way I do?"

There's a difference between disagreeing with you and ripping you apart. That said, you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of not only the word "*******" (which does, in fact, come from the concept of being "damned by God" and could easily have been interpreted as such in the context of the song), US federal broadcast regulatory authorities, the application of "community standards" and the value of art as both a pure pursuit and reflection of history that has been woefully misinformed by your (now abundantly clear, but previously disingenuously "ignored") religious beliefs.

There - now you can play the martyr and complain that I tried to "rip you apart", instead of engaging in legitimate cultural debate.

[momx6boys]

And what about the part where I asked why you feel the need to rip me about for feeling the way I do? It's not enough for you to say that you have a different opinion. If it was, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

You may come up with yet another belittling response, but I am going to answer your question:

Why am I offended? Because my relationship with God is precious to me. He's not just the God of Abraham in the Old Testament and He's not just the God who parted the Red Sea. He's my Lord and Saviour. He's REAL to me! He gets up with me in the morning and walks with me throughout my day. He holds me when my heart is breaking and he rejoices in the triumphs in my life. He's my Father, my mentor, my counselor. He's the glue that holds my life together. He's Lord of my Life and I love Him.

You may think the word in question is no different than saying "damned by God," but it is to me because this world uses that word as one of the most vile epithets.