Comments on: As Games End, China's Luster Is Tarnished

Despite Olympic Stage For Achievements And Gold Medal Lead, Nation Still Faces Concerns Over Human Rights

[telltale57]

I am very confident that in the long run China will reclaim her place as one of the greatest world cultures. But it won''t happen by ignoring what is wrong and whitewashing (Lin''s words) the bad sides of Chinese society.
I am also by no means suggesting that the West is much better. The difference is that, in China, this is all too transparent. Everyone knows it. They don''t say much about it because 1) it might get them into to trouble, 2) it won''t help anyway, and 3) they probably mostly accept it as the way the world is.
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[telltale57]

There is a great book - actually a couple, My Country and My People and The Importance of Living - written by one of the best 20th century English writers, Lin Yutang. He talks about everthing, but also such issues as corruption are sprinkled in here and there. The system is very deeply engrained in Chinese culture. But that does not mean that the leaders are not responsible. Of course, there is some level of corruption from the very small man up to the top. But it is a system that destroys everything. Everyone is, in some part, guilty. But still the leaders are the biggest criminals and so I hold them mostly responsible.
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[telltale57]

I never suggested that the Sichuan earthquake was a 7. I said it was far below the 10.5 that the law required for the building code. I thnk it was 7.8, but that is beside the point.

[telltale57]

If you find it incredible, I can understand. But check what the earthquake standards in earthquake prone areas is and you''ll see it is 10.5 everywhere. I''m well aware that there has never been a measured earthquake at that level. But they usually don''t prepare for the worste recorded earthquake, flood, etc. See what happened in New Orleans. You can''t just assume that it will never be that direct hit because it never happened before. anyway, this is beside the point, since China''s standard is also the same as international standard in this case. The difference is that the law was not enforced. And everyone, including the highest levels of government in Beijing, knew it wsn''t being enforced. Why did they do nothing? Because it is their clan that are among the main beneficiaries of such corruption. I live in the middle of it. Believe me. Or don''t. I don''t care. I''m just sharing information.

A party member may get on here and refute everythign I''ve said. Then you can decide who is right.

[joechristine]

Actually,Sichuan earthquake is 8.0 ,not just 7.0.

[joechristine]

telltale57:
Some of What you say here have been released in Chinese media and every CHinese know them.I think Chinses government has also realised them.As for "1) to pick up their money, the bribe money, and 2) to make sure that, from the outside, things look okay. They might, for example, take a look at some of the student papers. If the papers are not written well enough, the professors - that''''s right, the professors - will be required to rewrite the student papers to give the appearance of good education ",i think it just a tale!There is no need for them to do it. Yes,the schools in earthquale zone were not built to standard of the Chinese law.And it''s quite unlucky that it resulted in unnecessary deaths.But given rarely strong execution of Sichuan earthquake,this earthquake is the essential reason .

[telltale57]

To suggest that in Sichuan they were preparing for a 7. earthquake is ludicrous. Sichuan is well known to lie in a major faultline and to be subject to possible earthquake. An earthquake of 7 is a rather small one. It would be pointless to set that as the measure. Actually, on these sorts of issues Chinese science is as good as any. We certainly know what an earthquake is and where to expect them. You are selling the Chinese short here. And bribe money for such things ultimately ends up in the coffers of big mafia bosses in Beijing. It is well known in China.

[telltale57]

To suggest that in Sichuan they were preparing for a 7. earthquake is ludicrous. Sichuan is well known to lie in a major faultline and to be subject to possible earthquake. An earthquake of 7 is a rather small one. It would be pointless to set that as the measure. Actually, on these sorts of issues Chinese science is as good as any. We certainly know what an earthquake is and where to expect them. You are selling the Chinese short here. And bribe money for such things ultimately ends up in the coffers of big mafia bosses in Beijing. It is well known in China.

[telltale57]

as to the level of earthquake required by CHinese law, it is well known that the standard all over the world is 10.5. THat is, as you can see, to cover the worst case scenario. Chinese has very highly trained engeneers and modern laws on safety issues. I''ve lived in China for a long time and I''m half Chinese. I do know Chinese law. These things can be easily checked and in any case this point is not disputed. It was widely anounced on Hongkong TV.

[iamauto]

There two basic facts that you should know.

1. The biggest earthquke ever happened on earch was in Chile, 1960, a 9.5 magnitude earthquake(I guess you get the number 10.5 from the earthquake movie "10.5".);

2. In Sichuan, the law defines that the builds should withstand a 7 magnitude earthquake and the seismic intensity standard is 8(They''re different concepts);

[telltale57]

And so that is the system. Everyone in China knows it. Most have come to accept it as a way of life. But the central government is most responsible, since they are the main beneficiaries of this system. They do not enforce the laws, and for "good" reason, because by not enforcing the law they can fill their coffers.

[telltale57]

So, what if a school leader refuses to pay the bribe and insists on meeting the quality standard without cheating? Very simple. He will be replaced by someone who will play the game. Why? Because if he is not replaced, the money will not roll in to Beijing and other schools might get the idea that they can also opt out of the bribery system.
What has this got to do with Sichuan? Of course, it is the same system. Only one school did not fall to the ground in the earthquake, when, according to the standards of Chinese law, all of them should have easily withstood this earthquake. This was not the fault of some corrupt leaders in Sichuan. They had no choice. Just like the university dean, they could not opt out. They were forced to play that game, to build inferioir buildings and pay for the "official" certifying papers with bribe money. The one school that did hold up was also in the bribe system. But there, the leader was thoughtful enough to put some extra reinforcing into the building - just enough to withstand this earthquake - in addition to paying the bribe, which is in any case mandatory. He paid the extra reinforcing out of his own pocket - of course, that was also probalby stolen form the people, but that''s beside the point.
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[telltale57]

Inspectors come from Beijing to every school in China at all levels. Do they make sure that the quality of education is good? No. They come mainly for two reasons: 1) to pick up their money, the bribe money, and 2) to make sure that, from the outside, things look okay. They might, for example, take a look at some of the student papers. If the papers are not written well enough, the professors - that''s right, the professors - will be required to rewrite the student papers to give the appearance of good education.
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[telltale57]

So, you ask, why did they build tofu-houses for their children to attend school in? Let me explain it to you. In China there are several types of corruption. Some of it is without authrization of the government - a sort of entrepreneurial corruption. Do this at your own risk. You will not get much support from the government. But other corruption - and the overwhelming bulk of it - is actually controlled and organized by the government. For example the school system.

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[oneworldusa]

I was just hoping the human tower with some 400 people on it wasn''t Made in China. Fortunately, it didn''t fall. Perhaps it was made of lead.

[telltale57]

Now. There were some reports from Hongkong reporters at the sites of the schools before the Chinese authorities banned all reporters from the areas of the schools. But, it doesn''t matter. There is nothing to report since the mere fact that the schools fell down is in itself proof that the schools were not built to standard of the Chinese law. Pillars were not reinforced at all. As it was explained on the non-Chinese (not official Chinese) media, the result of the construction process was buildings that, during an earthquake, has roughly the consistency of tofu. Hence the label "tofu-houses." The Chinese form of this word could not be searched on the internet in the aftermath of the tragedy - the government wanted to stifle any discussion of such a topic.

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[telltale57]

Now, to continue, by Chinese law, in earthquake prone areas - such as Sichuan - buildings should be built to withstand a 10.5 earthquake. This is the same all over the world - in earthquake prone areas, that is.
The Chinese quake was well below 10.5, as you recall. No buildings built under the building code should have fallen. Let me just speak of the school houses, since this is the greatest tragedy. The schools should have been the one sure safe place during the earthquake. The only children that died should have been a few who were absent from school. Perhaps a few would be injured by shifting furniture, but no deaths would result from the earthquake.
Follow me so far?
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[iamauto]

This is an example of bias.
No matter how good you''ve done, some people always have something to say.

[telltale57]

Auto,
I see that this is not well known outside of China. Such a thing - a centrally controlled system of corruption and bribery - is also not so conceivable in the West. But if you lived in China or even a country like Thailand, you would take this as the way the world turns. No, I am not fabricating. But such a system is hard to imagine for you, so you just suppose I make it up. The Western press really has little idea how it works. Actually, you could read a very nice book by Lin Yutang written in the 1930s, a best seller, and get an idea of how things work. It is still much the same today. But more serious due to the larger amounts of money involved.
(I''ll continue again, since there is a word limit.)

[fjinnw]

telltale57, you are sure telling tales.