Why is this even an issue...oh yeh...religion. Same-sex couples deserve all of the same rights as heterosexual couples. Why not? There is no logical reason to deny marriage tot hem. Remember, I said logical. Forget the bible. It has no bearing on politics, or at least it shouldn't. In this case, ignorance is not bliss and the uneducated, ill-informed and hateful people should not be able to vote.
(1) : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (2) : the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage <same-sex marriage> b : the mutual relation of married persons : wedlock c : the institution whereby individuals are joined in a marriage
Please pay particular attention to (2) as shown. "marriage" is NOT specifically (1). No matter how many folks want to believe there is only ONE definition or type of "marriage".
Here in NC the way the question was asked was all important, and for whatever reason the actual wording of the amendment did not appear on the ballot. The rhetoric couched this as a vote against this amendment was "a vote against God". A huge number of ministers preached this repeatedly during the campaign. The for faction also had a tremendous amount of money from outside the state to use in advertising. And this was a primary with no really hotly contested state wide races. Even the republican most responsible for putting it on the ballot said it would be repealed in 10 years or less. So why? as nearly as I can tell it is the republican agenda to slap down a progressive moderate electorate while they are in power and if they are lucky turn us into just another ignorant (massive cuts in education) backward southern state that will keep them in power. The people who lost on this cannot give up on it. We have not heard the last of equality in NC.
Polling results are influenced by the way the questions are presented and the samples selected. Polling by individuals or groups that are trying to influence the broader population are designed for a specific result. A better polling method is secret ballot on a yes or no question. That's what an election is. Suggesting that people lie to polsters is just another way of expressing a bias. "I didn't get my way so someone must have lied." Childish.
Here's a little reading for you on people lying to pollsters, from the 2008 election: http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/08/lying_voters_may_skew_poll_res.html
And here is a recent report of an analysis of lying to pollsters during the 2008 campaign: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/victory_lab/2011/12/_likely_voters_lie_why_private_campaign_polls_get_such_different_results_from_public_media_polls_.html
Unfortunately, people lie. "Oh, I would never discriminate against anyone because of the color of his skin." There is not a person in America who would not say that. Yet race discrimination is rampant. So, I suspect, a lot of people, knowing that the acceptable answer is to say they favor gay marriage, answer the stranger asking the question over the phone that way. Then at the ballot box, in secret, give voice to their bigotry. Such people, you know who you are, are hypocrites.
Progress is being made for the civil rights of gay people, and faster than expected. But the apparent progress has to be discounted for the liars. One should recall that before the 1950s, you could not get a divorce in America without showing adultery or intolerable cruelty. Then Nevada enacted no-fault divorce. There was an uproar across the country. But slowly the situation turned. Courts in other states held that under the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the Constitution, their states had to recognize the divorce as valid. Reno was a boom town. Soon, the legislatures of the other states began to provide for divorce on the grounds of irretrievable breakdown. And so America changed, slowly at first, then faster and faster.
The same thing happened in the 80s with common law marriage. In Marvin vs. Marvin (Lee Marvin, the actor) the California Court of Appeals held that division of property applied to two people who had lived together as man and wife for many years even though they had never married. Slowly at first, then swiftly, that principle spread to the courts of the other states of the union.
The fact that 32 states have amended their constitutions to prohibit gay marriage means nothing other than that the bigots (conscious or unconscious) came to the ballot in force. In the end, even these states will have to bow to the Full Faith and Credit Clause and recognize marriages performed in other states. The final death knell to these discriminatory provisions in constitutions will come when the federal courts strike down those provisions as violating the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment. Eventually, citizens of those 32 states will look back with shame on their constitutions, wondering how they could have been so bigoted as to enact hateful laws like that.
One theory is that most of those who support gay rights are moderates who hold that belief in principle but do not have enough conviction to show up at the polls. One thing I will say about the conversative movement is that its constituents come out to the polls en masse predictably and with regularity. Centrists and left-leaning folk seem to show up when things reach a critical mass.
Leviticus 18:22 "Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable."
Leviticus 25:44-46 "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."
"True" christians believe in the word of god, not subject to the interpretations of man or "evolving" understanding of the human condition. ALL chapters of Leviticus, not just those they pick and choose to believe.
Recent polls showing a majority of Americans favoring of gay marriage can be explained by one of Mark Twain's quotes: "A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes."
Indeed, for years advocates for same-sex marriage have cast their cause as a civil rights struggle, claiming no difference between denying rights in accordance with race and doing the same in accordance with sexual orientation. They've also downplayed or outright denied the serious health risks associated with same-sex behavior and how they closely parallel those related to smoking. Further, these falsehoods and denials have circulated for years with the aid of an enthusiastic and compliant media, while the facts have not.
Despite its head start, this trend is most definitely reversible. For as the abortion debate shows and as the one on same-sex marriage will show, the truth eventually catches up with the lie and will do so ever more quickly because of the electronic media to which we now have access.
To illustrate this concept, I'll begin with an analogy For decades, the tobacco companies successfully hid or downplayed the serious health risks associated with smoking for the sake of a selfish agenda, which was to make money no matter the disease and damage it would cause. Finally, after years of speaking out and presenting the science, proving the serious health risks of smoking, the facts finally won out and curtailed smoking advertisements, persuaded millions to stop smoking, and made the tobacco companies financially liable for their misdeeds.
There was a lesson to be learned. It was to put facts above politics and selfish agendas. Not doing so only results in bad laws that benefit a minority at the expense of the majority.
Good laws do the exact opposite, while maintaining the individual rights and liberties of all people. Allowing same-sex behavior between consenting adults without any form of government recognition does this, despite what proponents of same-sex marriage would have us believe. For almost all the same reasons, this approach is appropriate for same-sex behavior just like it was for smoking. Referring to the essay, entitled "The Case for Limiting Government Recognition to Traditional Relationships," where research (from respected, mainstream, and apolitical sources) supporting the following statements can be found (1), I offer the following facts:
1. Smoking and same-sex behavior are engaged in by choice - even if the urge leading to the behavior seems strong or uncontrollable.
2. The urge for every human behavior, including smoking and same-sex activity, is due to a complex mix of genetic, biologic, and cultural/cognitive factors, which vary in predominance among individuals. In fact, the Japanese found that the propensity to smoke is up to 56% genetic. In comparison, the British and Swedes found that the propensity for homosexuality is up to 39% genetic. Yet we encourage programs to lessen or eliminate smoking addiction but do not do the same for those that have shown an ability to diminish or reverse homosexuality.
3. Smoking and same-sex activity are very unhealthy. Smoking is subject to an elevated risk of cancer, emphysema, and bronchitis. Same-sex behavior is subject to a high risk (several times higher than heterosexuals on a per person basis) of HIV/AIDS, at least four types of cancer, hepatitis, gastrointestinal illnesses, certain STDs (especially syphillis), human papilloma virus, and serious bodily damage.
4. As the habits develop, smoking and same-sex behavior tend to occur with increasing frequency. For the former, it's chain smoking; for the latter, it's several tens to even hundreds of partners over one's lifetime, something which marriage decreases but in no way eliminates, since the vast majority of homosexual relationships, whether married or not, are non-monogamous and 1 1/2 to 2.7 times more likely to divorce than heterosexuals.
5. For many, smoking can be a form of self-medication to reduce feelings of stress or anxiety. Coincidentally, homosexuals are more likely than heterosexuals to experience emotional and/or mental illnesses at rates that do not differ between societies that are highly accepting of homosexuality (Netherlands) and those that are less so (United States).
So given these very strong parallels, how is it that society has gone to great lengths to cease activities (such as advertising) that encourage smoking but won't (in some areas) do so the same for those (such as advocating or allowing same-sex marriage) that encourage same-sex behavior? It's because too many people have bought the lie without knowing the facts.
(2) - "Genetic basis of tobacco smoking: strong association of a specific major histocompatibility complex haplotype on chromosome 6 with smoking behavior."
Actually, smoking and religion have much more in common, as they are both *choices*.
Being attracted to a person of the same gender, on the other hand, is an innate characteristic that is not a choice.
As with smoking, religion can be very harmful to many people, both those who blindly believe without rational thought and those who are harmed by the "believers".
I suppose I could really go through each of your points. For example, number 5. For many, religion can be a form of self-deception, a method to reduce feelings of fear, confusion about the world, or anxiety about one's existence. Coincidentally, the religious are more likely than those who are not to cause, directly or indirectly, physical and/or emotional trauma to those they view as not 'following the correct path'. They often mistake the harm they cause their targets as a weakness or illness on the part of the target rather than a result of their own tyranny.
I *could* do this for each point, but there is no reason for another extreme wall of information simply to rebut your misinformation.
Tell me GGGP, when did you make the choice to be "straight"? You should remember such an important choice in your life. What was the date? What were you doing when you decided?
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According to Webster online:
(1) : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law (2) : the state of being united to a person of the same sex in a relationship like that of a traditional marriage <same-sex marriage> b : the mutual relation of married persons : wedlock c : the institution whereby individuals are joined in a
marriage
Please pay particular attention to (2) as shown. "marriage" is NOT specifically (1). No matter how many folks want to believe there is only ONE definition or type of "marriage".
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/08/lying_voters_may_skew_poll_res.html
And here is a recent report of an analysis of lying to pollsters during the 2008 campaign:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/victory_lab/2011/12/_likely_voters_lie_why_private_campaign_polls_get_such_different_results_from_public_media_polls_.html
Progress is being made for the civil rights of gay people, and faster than expected. But the apparent progress has to be discounted for the liars. One should recall that before the 1950s, you could not get a divorce in America without showing adultery or intolerable cruelty. Then Nevada enacted no-fault divorce. There was an uproar across the country. But slowly the situation turned. Courts in other states held that under the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the Constitution, their states had to recognize the divorce as valid. Reno was a boom town. Soon, the legislatures of the other states began to provide for divorce on the grounds of irretrievable breakdown. And so America changed, slowly at first, then faster and faster.
The same thing happened in the 80s with common law marriage. In Marvin vs. Marvin (Lee Marvin, the actor) the California Court of Appeals held that division of property applied to two people who had lived together as man and wife for many years even though they had never married. Slowly at first, then swiftly, that principle spread to the courts of the other states of the union.
The fact that 32 states have amended their constitutions to prohibit gay marriage means nothing other than that the bigots (conscious or unconscious) came to the ballot in force. In the end, even these states will have to bow to the Full Faith and Credit Clause and recognize marriages performed in other states. The final death knell to these discriminatory provisions in constitutions will come when the federal courts strike down those provisions as violating the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment. Eventually, citizens of those 32 states will look back with shame on their constitutions, wondering how they could have been so bigoted as to enact hateful laws like that.
Leviticus 25:44-46 "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."
"True" christians believe in the word of god, not subject to the interpretations of man or "evolving" understanding of the human condition. ALL chapters of Leviticus, not just those they pick and choose to believe.
Indeed, for years advocates for same-sex marriage have cast their cause as a civil rights struggle, claiming no difference between denying rights in accordance with race and doing the same in accordance with sexual orientation. They've also downplayed or outright denied the serious health risks associated with same-sex behavior and how they closely parallel those related to smoking. Further, these falsehoods and denials have circulated for years with the aid of an enthusiastic and compliant media, while the facts have not.
Despite its head start, this trend is most definitely reversible. For as the abortion debate shows and as the one on same-sex marriage will show, the truth eventually catches up with the lie and will do so ever more quickly because of the electronic media to which we now have access.
To illustrate this concept, I'll begin with an analogy For decades, the tobacco companies successfully hid or downplayed the serious health risks associated with smoking for the sake of a selfish agenda, which was to make money no matter the disease and damage it would cause. Finally, after years of speaking out and presenting the science, proving the serious health risks of smoking, the facts finally won out and curtailed smoking advertisements, persuaded millions to stop smoking, and made the tobacco companies financially liable for their misdeeds.
There was a lesson to be learned. It was to put facts above politics and selfish agendas. Not doing so only results in bad laws that benefit a minority at the expense of the majority.
Good laws do the exact opposite, while maintaining the individual rights and liberties of all people. Allowing same-sex behavior between consenting adults without any form of government recognition does this, despite what proponents of same-sex marriage would have us believe. For almost all the same reasons, this approach is appropriate for same-sex behavior just like it was for smoking. Referring to the essay, entitled "The Case for Limiting Government Recognition to Traditional Relationships," where research (from respected, mainstream, and apolitical sources) supporting the following statements can be found (1), I offer the following facts:
1. Smoking and same-sex behavior are engaged in by choice - even if the urge leading to the behavior seems strong or uncontrollable.
2. The urge for every human behavior, including smoking and same-sex activity, is due to a complex mix of genetic, biologic, and cultural/cognitive factors, which vary in predominance among individuals. In fact, the Japanese found that the propensity to smoke is up to 56% genetic. In comparison, the British and Swedes found that the propensity for homosexuality is up to 39% genetic. Yet we encourage programs to lessen or eliminate smoking addiction but do not do the same for those that have shown an ability to diminish or reverse homosexuality.
3. Smoking and same-sex activity are very unhealthy. Smoking is subject to an elevated risk of cancer, emphysema, and bronchitis. Same-sex behavior is subject to a high risk (several times higher than heterosexuals on a per person basis) of HIV/AIDS, at least four types of cancer, hepatitis, gastrointestinal illnesses, certain STDs (especially syphillis), human papilloma virus, and serious bodily damage.
4. As the habits develop, smoking and same-sex behavior tend to occur with increasing frequency. For the former, it's chain smoking; for the latter, it's several tens to even hundreds of partners over one's lifetime, something which marriage decreases but in no way eliminates, since the vast majority of homosexual relationships, whether married or not, are non-monogamous and 1 1/2 to 2.7 times more likely to divorce than heterosexuals.
5. For many, smoking can be a form of self-medication to reduce feelings of stress or anxiety. Coincidentally, homosexuals are more likely than heterosexuals to experience emotional and/or mental illnesses at rates that do not differ between societies that are highly accepting of homosexuality (Netherlands) and those that are less so (United States).
So given these very strong parallels, how is it that society has gone to great lengths to cease activities (such as advertising) that encourage smoking but won't (in some areas) do so the same for those (such as advocating or allowing same-sex marriage) that encourage same-sex behavior? It's because too many people have bought the lie without knowing the facts.
(1) - http://marriage-onemanandonewoman.blogspot.com/2011/07/case-for-limiting-government.html
(2) - "Genetic basis of tobacco smoking: strong association of a specific major histocompatibility complex haplotype on chromosome 6 with smoking behavior."
Being attracted to a person of the same gender, on the other hand, is an innate characteristic that is not a choice.
As with smoking, religion can be very harmful to many people, both those who blindly believe without rational thought and those who are harmed by the "believers".
I suppose I could really go through each of your points. For example, number 5. For many, religion can be a form of self-deception, a method to reduce feelings of fear, confusion about the world, or anxiety about one's existence. Coincidentally, the religious are more likely than those who are not to cause, directly or indirectly, physical and/or emotional trauma to those they view as not 'following the correct path'. They often mistake the harm they cause their targets as a weakness or illness on the part of the target rather than a result of their own tyranny.
I *could* do this for each point, but there is no reason for another extreme wall of information simply to rebut your misinformation.