No it's not. What Lt Col. Lakin said, that was dangerous, and people from all over spoke up about it. What this kid is saying is nothing. He's saying he won't obey and unlawful order from Obama, woopty freaking do, no military member is allowed to follow an unlawful order from any part of the chain of command. And determining the lawfulness of an order is up to the individual military member, for they will be held accountable legally and punitively if they obey an unlawful order, regardless of who the order came down from.
You show where this Marine was wrong in what he said because you won't find it. He was wrong when he didn't specify "unlawful" the first time he spoke, if that's what he meant to say. However, he quickly changed his wording to what I'm sure he meant to say, which is "unlawful order." I mean no military member is going to say that they won't obey orders because that goes against their oath and their conviction to defend this nation.
Marine Sgt. Gary Stein first started a Facebook page called Armed Forces Tea Party Patriots to encourage service members to exercise their free speech rights. Then he declared that he wouldn't follow orders from the commander in chief, President Barack Obama.
While Stein softened his statement to say he wouldn't follow "unlawful orders," military observers say he may have gone too far.
--------------------------------
Stein is completely wrong. Even during Bush's terms, when many Marines felt that Bush was completely wrong, they had an overriding duty to obey their COC. The fact that the military is subservient(?) to the civilian sector is what has kept us from a military dictatorship.
Any military member can state I will not follow an unlawful order because it's every military members responsibility under the UCMJ to understand what's wrong and what's right. Example: You can't order your troops to kill an unarmed prisoner without an order of execution.
Sgt Stein however will never get to determine whether the President's orders are unlawful or not because he is not under his direct supervision. His immediate superiors in his chain-of-command and appointed over him directly are the only individuals issuing orders and Sgt Stein anwsers directly to them.
The Sgt is walking a very gray line and could have been given a court martial for "treason" instead of a warning for making the statement, "he wouldn't follow orders from the Commander-in-Chief, President Barack Obama".
Sgt Stein I award you for speaking your opinions but don't cross the line. Free Speech in the military is not the same as for civilians and military personnel know it. Read before you speak or you could lose your military career...don't push it too far.
Military good order and discipline are essential to a good unit. You may not like all the changes that you and others in the military will have to swallow regretably but they are necessary in a strong Democratic Society. Our troops are number 1 because of America's form of Democratic Government.
"by Truthbtruth March 8, 2012 1:19 PM EST WRONG. Never heard of the Nuremberg Trials? Any solder must object to any order he or she feels is unlawful. Just saying I was following orders is not acceptable and will not keep you out of prison".
Actually, you're wrong. A soldier or Marine must object to any "unlawful order". Not an order that they "feel" is unlawful...
There were unlawful orders given to the young troops given physical responsibility of the prisoners from superiors who basically hid in the shadows.
You have to be smart in the military or you end up like those soldiers did....in prison.
This is not the case when discussing the Sgt's situation but is a great reminder that not every order given by a "immediate" superior is a lawful order.
Truthbtruth: This soldier or YOU do not get to decide that Obama's orders are unlawful because you don't like him or his politics. He was ELECTED by the AMERICAN PEOPLE fair and square in a democratic election. It isn't nullified because you don't like him or some ranting birther keeps insisting his certificate is fake. If that were proven and some official action were taken, then he would not be commander-in-chief. NONE of that has happened, and he IS our President and IS commander-in-chief. Anybody who willfully disobeys or incites others to do the same should be discharged ASAP. They are a THREAT to our democracy.
The draft isn't going to change the bottom of the barrel. The draft however would better represent America's society from all class levels ensuring a better understanding at all social levels.
Right now the wealthiest of Americans do nothing for this country except take away from the middle class and lower income while those classes keep this country running physically.
I want to see a lot more golden spoon fed Americans serving at the lowest levels of the military so they know both sides and get a better understanding of team work and what it means to earn something rather than having it given to you.
At the same time the lower levels of society could learn from the golden fed how to create wealth and a network to get ahead.
In the military we don't choose to discharge first, we train. This young veteran didn't get to spend 8 yrs in the military by being a bad Marine, so I say he deserves to be retrained in some of his military duties.
If the military discharged everyone who held misguided beliefs, we wouldn't have a military. Train first and see if he comes around and if not...well he will eventually be discharged. His actions however could lead him into some painful time under disciplinary recourse by his superiors while still required to do his job.
""Just because I'm a Marine doesn't mean I don't have free speech or can't say my personal opinion about the president or other public official just like anybody else," Stein said. "The Constitution trumps everything else.""
----------------
Sgt - your complete lack of understanding about the rules invalidates your position. You have the right to your opinion and while active in the military you have a RESPONSIBILITY to follow the rules. As a Marine, you are expected and required to set a proper example of 'one step above' the level of others.
Your complete lack of common sense and vulgar display of your lack of respect for the Marine Corps and military law make me think one thing and one thing only:
This Marine needs to be discharged immediately. President Obama is our Commander in Chief! Regardless of one's political affiliation we always honor the Corps and follow our Commander in Chief!!!!! Grow up Marine, keep the honor of the Corps or GO HOME!
General Court-Martial and a dishonorable discharge sound about right for this. You don't get to pick which orders to follow as long as they are lawful. You respect the office if not the person in it at the time. This person does not belong in our military. I would not want to serve with him because I would never trust him to follow orders..and that could get me killed.
Truthbtruth: Strange how conservatives views on military discipline change when the Commander in Chief is not a conservative. If another Marine had said this under Bush, I doubt you'd be defending his freedom of speech.
Actually, I vaguely remember someone did say something like that under Bush, but it had to do with not going to war in Iraq because of the Democrat view that it was an illegal war, blood for oil, and all that nonsense.
It was a totally different scenario because this member was talking about violating his sworn-in oath to do his job as a military member. However, this Marine everything he has said is hypothetical, an "if" statement. If Obama gave him an unlawful order, he is saying that he won't obey it. If he is told to round up soldiers to be tried by the UN, thereby stripping them of their Constitutional and UCMJ rights, then he will disobey it.
This Marine is talking strictly hypothetically, and is only reaffirming his decision to obey that which military policy has already ordered him to do. The only really controversial thing here is the fact that he used the name Obama, referring to the president specifically rather than using general terms that apply to the entire chain of command, not the president specifically.
In fact, if I remember correctly, nothing really happened the military member for saying what they said except maybe a reprimand or maybe not even that. But that makes sense because Conservatives tolerate free speech that disagrees with it where as Liberals try to silence it.
General Court-Martial and a dishonorable discharge sound about right for this. You don't get to pick which orders to follow as long as they are lawful. You respect the office if not the person in it at the time. This person does not belong in our military. I would not want to serve with him because I would never trust him to follow orders..and that could get me killed.
The posting of advertisements, profanity, or personal attacks is prohibited. By using this Web site you agree to accept our Terms of Service. Click here to read the Rules of Engagement.
Reply to Comment The posting of advertisements, profanity, or personal attacks is prohibited. By using this Web site you agree to accept our Terms of Service. Click here to read the Rules of Engagement.
You show where this Marine was wrong in what he said because you won't find it. He was wrong when he didn't specify "unlawful" the first time he spoke, if that's what he meant to say. However, he quickly changed his wording to what I'm sure he meant to say, which is "unlawful order." I mean no military member is going to say that they won't obey orders because that goes against their oath and their conviction to defend this nation.
While Stein softened his statement to say he wouldn't follow "unlawful orders," military observers say he may have gone too far.
--------------------------------
Stein is completely wrong. Even during Bush's terms, when many Marines felt that Bush was completely wrong, they had an overriding duty to obey their COC. The fact that the military is subservient(?) to the civilian sector is what has kept us from a military dictatorship.
Any military member can state I will not follow an unlawful order because it's every military members responsibility under the UCMJ to understand what's wrong and what's right. Example: You can't order your troops to kill an unarmed prisoner without an order of execution.
Sgt Stein however will never get to determine whether the President's orders are unlawful or not because he is not under his direct supervision. His immediate superiors in his chain-of-command and appointed over him directly are the only individuals issuing orders and Sgt Stein anwsers directly to them.
The Sgt is walking a very gray line and could have been given a court martial for "treason" instead of a warning for making the statement, "he wouldn't follow orders from the Commander-in-Chief, President Barack Obama".
Sgt Stein I award you for speaking your opinions but don't cross the line. Free Speech in the military is not the same as for civilians and military personnel know it. Read before you speak or you could lose your military career...don't push it too far.
Military good order and discipline are essential to a good unit. You may not like all the changes that you and others in the military will have to swallow regretably but they are necessary in a strong Democratic Society. Our troops are number 1 because of America's form of Democratic Government.
WRONG. Never heard of the Nuremberg Trials? Any solder must object to any order he or she feels is unlawful. Just saying I was following orders is not acceptable and will not keep you out of prison".
Actually, you're wrong. A soldier or Marine must object to any "unlawful order". Not an order that they "feel" is unlawful...
There were unlawful orders given to the young troops given physical responsibility of the prisoners from superiors who basically hid in the shadows.
You have to be smart in the military or you end up like those soldiers did....in prison.
This is not the case when discussing the Sgt's situation but is a great reminder that not every order given by a "immediate" superior is a lawful order.
Right now the wealthiest of Americans do nothing for this country except take away from the middle class and lower income while those classes keep this country running physically.
I want to see a lot more golden spoon fed Americans serving at the lowest levels of the military so they know both sides and get a better understanding of team work and what it means to earn something rather than having it given to you.
At the same time the lower levels of society could learn from the golden fed how to create wealth and a network to get ahead.
If the military discharged everyone who held misguided beliefs, we wouldn't have a military. Train first and see if he comes around and if not...well he will eventually be discharged. His actions however could lead him into some painful time under disciplinary recourse by his superiors while still required to do his job.
----------------
Sgt - your complete lack of understanding about the rules invalidates your position. You have the right to your opinion and while active in the military you have a RESPONSIBILITY to follow the rules. As a Marine, you are expected and required to set a proper example of 'one step above' the level of others.
Your complete lack of common sense and vulgar display of your lack of respect for the Marine Corps and military law make me think one thing and one thing only:
YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO BE A MARINE
Maybe he can still be trained.
Semper Fi
Actually, I vaguely remember someone did say something like that under Bush, but it had to do with not going to war in Iraq because of the Democrat view that it was an illegal war, blood for oil, and all that nonsense.
It was a totally different scenario because this member was talking about violating his sworn-in oath to do his job as a military member. However, this Marine everything he has said is hypothetical, an "if" statement. If Obama gave him an unlawful order, he is saying that he won't obey it. If he is told to round up soldiers to be tried by the UN, thereby stripping them of their Constitutional and UCMJ rights, then he will disobey it.
This Marine is talking strictly hypothetically, and is only reaffirming his decision to obey that which military policy has already ordered him to do. The only really controversial thing here is the fact that he used the name Obama, referring to the president specifically rather than using general terms that apply to the entire chain of command, not the president specifically.
In fact, if I remember correctly, nothing really happened the military member for saying what they said except maybe a reprimand or maybe not even that. But that makes sense because Conservatives tolerate free speech that disagrees with it where as Liberals try to silence it.
The Marine Corps needs to give him a bad conduct discharge ASAP