Comments on: Evangelicals A Key Part Of S.C. GOP Race

Huckabee Counting On Support From Christian Conservatives, But Others Are Courting Them

[candide777]

However: I believe that the vast majority of religious people - certainly the many I know personally - are good, solid citizens who wouldn''''t hurt a fly and genuinely care about the community and humanity as a whole.
Posted by erichsh at 01:02 PM : Jan 11, 2008

If what you say were true, it would be impossible for our president to get away with trying to amend a document that should be far more sacred than any Bible, the U.S. Constitution, for the sole purpose of promoting hatred toward, marginalizing and depriving an entire class of "good, solid citizens who wouldn''t hurt a fly and genuinely care about the community and humanity as a whole" simply because the Christian "god" allegedly doesn''t approve of what he created them to be: gay_ or lesbian.

In the words of someone the religious people MIGHT give some credence to, MLK, "We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the hateful words and actions of the bad people but for the appalling silence of the good people."

You are simply wrong, erichsh, the majority of Christians in this country DO hurt more than just a fly each day, not just with the hateful policies they promote, but also with their appalling silence, and I do not by any means intend to suggest that gay_ and lesbian americans are the only victims of the Christians'' appalling silence. It''s one plain and simple example of how Christians try to force their religious beliefs onto others by depriving them of equal treatment under the law.

[finewoven]

There are good Christians and bad ones.
Posted by jon2012 at 01:04 PM : Jan 11, 2008

Since your are on the outside looking in, let me offer some perspective. Only God is good. Christians are admittedly sinners. It isn''t so much that bad is bad, as much as bad can somehow be redeemed to be made good. And lastly, sin and death are the same.

To your point, metaphysics is the root of science, and if you check the history, it is based on religious concepts developed over the millenia. Greater science is on the way, if only we could keep the peace to receive it.

And one major point: Christ walks among us today, and is not waiting for some future cataclysmic event. People who tell you that want to take away your free will.

[jon2012-2009]

I agree with you. They do a grave disservice to the religion they profess to uphold. But too many atheists hold these types up as representative of the rest of Christians.
Posted by erichsh at 12:18 PM : Jan 11, 2008

There is some point to what you''re saying but you miss most of it.

Religion is kind of like science. Judging by results, science can be a force for good or bad. For example, it has spawned the technology that sustains modern economies based on burning fossil fuels. You trace its origins, you can blame the looming scourge of global warming on science. But this same technology has also driven our standard of living.

Religion, like science, can go both ways. There are good Christians and bad ones. But unlike science, there is a penalty on both good and bad zealots. This penalty is in the form of a cognitive impairment in which reality is no longer the ultimate check on perceptions. This is not good for a democracy which requires a vibrant base of citizens who can think critically.

[erichsh]

erichsh, I take it from your personal attacks on me that you must harbor an extreme hatred for atheist. I do wonder, however, why you have not countered a single argument I''ve made. Is it because you agree with me that believing in god is irrational?

Posted by Candide777 at 12:27 PM : Jan 11, 2008

I don''t believe in God because I think it''s irrational.

However: I believe that the vast majority of religious people - certainly the many I know personally - are good, solid citizens who wouldn''t hurt a fly and genuinely care about the community and humanity as a whole. And I deeply respect them for that, as well as the peaceful and respectful core beliefs that they ascribe to and conduct their lives by.

It seems to me - based, for example on the comments in this thread - that atheists such as yourself view religion - and by extension, all religious people - exclusively as a province of hatred, murder, stupidity, (fill in the blanks), etc. You cannot and will not ascribe a single positive characteristic to religion.

My issue is not with the merits (or lack thereof) of religion. My issue is with the way atheists personally attack religious people. To the extent that that is how you frame your arguments, you can expect me to respond accordingly.

[finewoven]

If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." Voltaire
Posted by Candide777 at 12:27 PM : Jan 11, 2008

Great use of a quote. It supports your point quite well.

[finewoven]

But too many atheists hold these types up as representative of the rest of Christians.
Posted by erichsh at 12:18 PM : Jan 11, 2008

We are beholden to chastise our own, not others so much. They can no more accuse us than we can them, without holding truth up as the higher priciple by which to measure. Today, many people have their own truth, which sometimes are unmitigated lies to maintain the status quo.

Tell me, have you ever known a Christian right representative that didn''t request a tax break for the tithes he gives? How is it that charity should be a government concern, and distribution of wealth is not? How can religious choices support political aims without in some way confusing the purpose of the religion to start with? Our Founding Fathers understood this.

I sometimes admire athesists for not having to address these questions. How care free for them.

[erichsh]

Be careful, Candide777, before you try to make the outrageous assertion that somehow that I''m supportive of the 9/11 terrorists. Not only do you associate most of the world''s (religious) population with a handful of these murderers, now you''re trying to include me in with the same bunch. About as twisted and convoluted piece of "logic" as I''ve seen. And yet you characterize yourself as "tolerant". What a joke.

[sgtrds]

No need to feel sorry for me. I pay my taxes, I don''''t lie, cheat, steal, commit violent crimes, basically, I do unto others as I would have them do unto me. (If only Christians truly understood what that meant.) In short, no god in his right mind would send me to hell for eternity, so you can stop worrying. I''''ll be totally fine. Oh, and please, stop trying to scare people into believing. It''''s really not cool. You have no right to feel sorry for me, trust me. But that is what I''''ve come to expect from the faithful -- no facts, no evidence, no logical argument, just simple, inexplicable pity born out of fear.

Posted by Candide777 at 12:18 PM : Jan 11, 2008

Bravo and well stated!

[candide777]

What a boorish, arrogant piece of work. About as "tolerant" as Candide777.
Posted by erichsh at 12:02 PM : Jan 11, 2008

erichsh, I take it from your personal attacks on me that you must harbor an extreme hatred for atheist. I do wonder, however, why you have not countered a single argument I''ve made. Is it because you agree with me that believing in god is irrational?

"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." Voltaire

Every crime against humanity can be attributed to the above fundamental debacle. By failing to stand up for reason, erichsh, you are complicit. You give the Pat Robertsons, the religious terrorists, the Nazi''s (who scapegoated the Jews as "Christ killers"), the Christian crusaders, etc., etc. the tools they need to commit their crimes against humanity.

[jon2012-2009]

Good for you, jon. Obviously you don''''t count yourself amongst those schmucks. You are sooooo much smarter than them. What a boorish, arrogant piece of work. About as "tolerant" as Candide777.
Posted by erichsh at 12:02 PM : Jan 11, 2008

Erich, this isn''t personal. What I said stands by itself and has nothing to do with me beyond the fact that I claim the comments as mine. Criticize me on my ideas if you can.