Comments on: Evangelicals A Key Part Of S.C. GOP Race

Huckabee Counting On Support From Christian Conservatives, But Others Are Courting Them

[adasher1]

Finewoven, how could your bible profess perfect order when, as you say and I agree, some planets are in a more circular revolution and some in a more elliptical revolution? Some speeding away and some floating away. Some about to be burned up and some millions of light years from certain doom%u201D How can you ask to have it both ways, perfect order and chaos? Again, anyone that thinks a god made this is not worthy of leading a nation. They show an amount of instability that makes for a better side show clown then a President.

[candide777]

My point is that for all the injustices perpetrated because of religion, there are countless more smaller acts of grace and decency brought about and bestowed by religious people. For example, there are countless charitable organizations like "Habitat for Humanity" and the "Salvation Army" who work to help out the less fortunate.
I don''t view religion in the same stark, grim, evil, monotone light that you do, that''''s all. Gotta go.
Posted by erichsh at 07:16 PM : Jan 11, 2008

If you got to know atheists, you would realize that all those countless more smaller acts of grace and decency come from being human, not religious. It''s simply wrong for you to credit religion with that.

Without religion, you have good people doing good things and bad people doing bad things. The only way to get good people to do bad things is with religion. I too, gotta go.

[erichsh]

Candide777 - I''m not going to dispute your contention that religion causes a lot of needless suffering. However, since I mentioned my wife, and you picked up on it, I need to clarify your conclusion for you.

My wife (like your grandparents) not only means well, she conducts her daily life according to her religious beliefs. Amongst those beliefs is that we are to all love and forgive, and harbor no malice. When I want to wring some idiot''s neck, she councils me not to because it''s not Christian. And I respect her for that. But since I''m not Christian I''m not bound by such restraint and grace.

The other thing that religion provides her is a deep self-assurance that she is loved by her God and Jesus, and her faith provides her with an inner peace and happiness I cannot claim for myself. Now go ahead and pronounce her (and, more to the point, millions of like-minded Christians) as blithering idiots worshipping a sky-father or what have you. I take a more charitable view - it if fulfills some inner need that I don''t understand, more power to them.

My point is that for all the injustices perpetrated because of religion, there are countless more smaller acts of grace and decency brought about and bestowed by religious people. For example, there are countless charitable organizations like "Habitat for Humanity" and the "Salvation Army" who work to help out the less fortunate.

I don''t view religion in the same stark, grim, evil, monotone light that you do, that''s all. Gotta go.

[candide777]

Kind of like the dark side of the moon--never gets any light. Poor soul. Time heals most wounds, though some that fester never quite make it through.
Best of luck.
Posted by finewoven at 06:55 PM : Jan 11, 2008

Oh, that''s so sweet, and such a surprise, another pompous arogant "spiritual" type feigning concern for a fellow human being. Really touches me. Truth is, I''m fully recovered from religion. You see, I grew up and became an adult. That''s when I put away childish things, but hey, if you''re still amused by them, more power to you. Enjoy your journey.

[finewoven]

Since any other view would reveal the dark under-belly of religion.
Posted by Candide777 at 06:35 PM : Jan 11, 2008

Kind of like the dark side of the moon--never gets any light. Poor soul. Time heals most wounds, though some that fester never quite make it through.

Best of luck.

[candide777]

Secondly, I can assure you I''''m not religious - just ask my devout Christian wife who would love for me to attend church with her, but I won''''t and can''''t.
Posted by erichsh at 06:21 PM : Jan 11, 2008

Ah, there in "lies" the rub. You are afraid that acknowledging the evils of religion means that you don''t love your wife. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have had dear, well-loved and well-respected grandparents who were devout christians. I learned to hate the sin, not the sinners. They meant well, and rest assured, they meant no harm to anyone, but the fact remains their religion has and continues to be the cause of a great deal of needless suffering on this earth. I cannot simply look the other way, and say, oh gee, what''s the harm? I know what the harm is, and so should you. Believing in lies is a dangerous thing, just look around the world today.

[candide777]

Sure you did - right here:

"As someone who never had to suffer any of the real and painful injustices perpetrated by the religious in this country, I would expect you to be cavalier about it." - candide777

Finally, your question: "Now, how does a black Baptist woman contribute to the oppression and persecution of gay_ and lesbian americans, is that your question? Seriously?"

Yeah, seriously. . .

Posted by erichsh at 06:21 PM : Jan 11, 2008

First of all, the fact that you have not suffered at the hands of a religious person does not equate to being "exempt" from their hatred and intolerance, it just makes you lucky.

Secondly, I have demonized religion not, as you dishonestly imply, every single person on the face of the earth who is religious, though at some level they are complicit, just not consciously so.

Third, to answer your question, how about when this hypothetical black Baptist woman''s son realizes that he is gay and then commits suicide because he knows that his mother, the only family that he has, will never accept his shameful and dirty secret? I guess that doesn''t count in your book though, that''s his fault, right? Since any other view would reveal the dark under-belly of religion.

I''m not blaming his mother though -- when she buries her son, she becomes as much a victim of religion as he was.

[erichsh]

On the other hand, you''ve declared white non-Christian hetrosexual males such as myself as having been exempt from that hatred . . . Posted by erichsh at 05:28 PM : Jan 11, 2008

First of all, that''s a lie, plain and simple, I never said that.

Sure you did - right here:

"As someone who never had to suffer any of the real and painful injustices perpetrated by the religious in this country, I would expect you to be cavalier about it." - candide777

Secondly, I can assure you I''m not religious - just ask my devout Christian wife who would love for me to attend church with her, but I won''t and can''t. I urge you to read my posts literally. Talk about a straw man! You make a baseless assumption about me, one that''s not backed up by anything I''ve said, and then proceed on to your trademark rants about said false assumption.

Finally, your question: "Now, how does a black Baptist woman contribute to the oppression and persecution of gay_ and lesbian americans, is that your question? Seriously?"

Yeah, seriously. Like I''ve said, you''ve painted religious people with one broad, brush: "hateful policies", "absurdly stupid", "liars", "appalling silence", "cram their religion down my throat", etc. etc. ad nauseum.

Now if certain classes of religious people are exempt from these characterizations, then perhaps you can elaborate. And then explain why THEY are''nt stupid, ignorant, dangerous fools, but OTHERS are.

[finewoven]

to do exactly what he planned that I would do a long time ago because after all, he is god. Does that make sense?
Posted by adasher1 at 05:35 PM : Jan 11, 2008

And herein lies the confusion for most. Let''s put it a different way if you''ll allow. The planets in our solar system all have an orbit, some are elliptical are others circular (Earth''s actually changes over time based on a wobble and tilt). Would you be able to anticipate the different manifestations caused? When is the next lunar Eclipse? When is summer and winter? But afterall, you''re intepretation of what causes it is based on your knowledge. If you don''t have this knowledge you may choose to come up with some kind of story to explain (some myth), but only those who really know can give you the truth.

[candide777]

On the other hand, you''''ve declared white non-Christian hetrosexual males such as myself as having been exempt from that hatred . . . Posted by erichsh at 05:28 PM : Jan 11, 2008

First of all, that''s a lie, plain and simple, I never said that. Secondly, you do seem to be pretty religious, are you sure you are not? Usually, it is the die-hard christians that resort to strawman arguments such as the ones you''ve been putting forth, which I hardly find necessary to respond to since you can''t have an honest argument. Also, typically, it''s the religious who believe, as you seem to, that everything is "black and white," i.e., that all religious people are either guilty or not guilty of the same evil conduct.

We certainly do seem to be talking past each other though because there is nothing self-contradictory nor complex about anything I have said: If we believe absurdities, we will commit atrocities. See, for example, 9/11; the Salem Witch trials, etc., ad nauseum.

Now, how does a black Baptist woman contribute to the oppression and persecution of gay_ and lesbian americans, is that your question? Seriously?