Comments on: Immigration Collapse A Blow To Bush

GOP Senators Play Key Role In Scuttling President's Immigration Reform Plan

[mrsbabs24]

I say that if they (the illegals) want to become US Citizens put them over in IRAQ and if they come back then make them US Citizens. Then they have earned to be here legally. They have taken our jobs, benifits from DHS and we are paying for their healthcare, because they can not get insurance because they can not prove who they are. They get picked up over and over for drunk driving, driving without insurance and no driver's license and what happens they get their hands slapped, fined and told not to do it again. What is wrong with our legal system, do they not check to see if they are legal citizens?? Guess not because they are still here. Send them to fight our war and bring our men and women home to their loved ones....That is all I have to say to MR. BUSH....

[nyckate]

likeitis5050 -- how many americans you know who want to do the seasonal (brutal) work ofo picking fruit and veggies? Or cleaning out toilets? or working in slaughter houses?

Get real - these people are working because the jobs are there.

Thing is the companies like that they're illegal - the company doesn't have to pay them well, give them paid holidays, health insurance and they don't have to pay federal, state and disability taxes for them either.

You can't have it all ways - you can either admit that you don't anyone who wants to get into a 'career' of picking lettuce nevermind thousands who do - or accept that we have to find a way to reasonably assimiliate them without further cost to us the working middle class.

Oh - if Bush were really interested in satisfying you on illegal immigrations he'd have gone after the companies that hire them - he didn't. He fooled ya'll yet again.

[dphaffner]

Hey dumb *** people. what we need to worry about is collecting taxes from the people working here illegaly, and thier employers. The unemployment rate is at 3.6% And they won't work. Let the illegals all work, "You won't". But make sure they pay thier way with taxes. And you have to know where they are to do that. How many here in the U.S. are on welfair ? Too many. The Mexicans will at least work, and are taking no jobs.If the jobs weren't there, they wouldn't have one. Think about it people. We need to find a way to tax the illegals, and amnesty might work. The ones that are aginst amnesty are the dime-o-rats and lazy *** people. The same kind of people. And I am a U.S born and raised whitie.

[toldyouso21]

there should be an assimilation process. Where volunteers work to explain and teach how we do things here. How we keep our land, hygiene, what we do in public, how we treat our women, what is acceptable and what is not. This saves a lot of prejudices being built up. At some point, maybe within that year, it is time for the first group to be pronounced as candidates. I am against wholesale amnesty, because there is no way our government can know who they are providing that process to. People must be vetted for illness and criminal records at the minimum. I think the idea of raining down a decree and handing out legal status is insulting to all of us who will live among the people getting the decrees. Again, it is like we do not matter and that Congress and supporters think we are supposed to just accept anyone they dump on us--no matter what that person does or how they act--because it seems that person being allowed among us is more important than we are. That is not a good way to treat citizens. I have to go--I have not eaten dinner. Perhaps tommorrow--more.

[toldyouso21]

After that--listen, don't tell us how we will get 12 million in, tell us how we will minimize the impact of those 12 million once the game changes. How will we not have to support them---waht rules for welfare or even families to be here--will be enforced? What will we do about crimes and community standards? the problem is too many are willing to dump their pet project on the rest of us--and we are saying hell no?

Will there be amnesty--probably at some point--but there is a lot that must be addressed and fixed before we are in the mood to forgive anything. My mom had a saying (she had many) that is very appropos: a man with a full stomach, does not mind sharing a pie--but a hungry man with only a slice will kill another for wanting to take it.

I think, that a year should be spent researching and studying the old laws, and patching them--then also in proposing the new laws, in the mean time--some things should slow down or stop. I think it is NOT a good Idea to tell Americans people with felonies should come here to live. That is a slap in the face. On many countries a felony means a person cannot live here--also with our crime rates, we do not want to inherit another country's bad habits or criminals. People will function in this country as much like the way they function in the old country. If they are used to a bit of money to oil the wheels to take care of business--they will probably try it here too. These things lead to misunderstandings.

[likeitis5050]

Bottom line....jobs are at stake if illegals are granted any degree of amnesty...and the jobs at stake are in Washington. People are not going to elect anyone who caved on this issue. It is a problem. But it didn't happen overnight and the rumblings have been growing for years. When an illegal can have an entire hospital bill absorbed for delivery of a baby by the hospital not once but twice because the hospital is Catholic based and they support illegals, people are going to have issues with that. And the ones I hear complaining just as loud are the ones who waited years and paid through the nose to be given legal status. They do not get the 'free pass to what you need' treatment that illegals get when it comes to health care and housing. Welcome to the United States.

[toldyouso21]

So this sort of gets to the point--when you want a people to come on board for an idea--it is not enough to share your ideas and sentiments--nor can you preach to them--first LISTEN to them and one by one allay their concerns. Note I did not say discount their concerns or call them liars or say too bad--because that only makes an enemy--then they can't consider your side either --You have to listen--see their fears and hopes and how you can secure those or ensure those, how you can turn a threat into a positive. So find out all the holes in the 1986 program--lay it all out to us--and be truthful. If we just turned a blind eye for cheap labor--say it, because if the lies start--then it is hard to ever get to the point of trust.

After we see the holes --propose the fix. Explain why these things will work, be careful here. if the things failed because they just weren't enforced--then we are admitting they can fail again, if businesses want cheap labor.

Can we get to amnesty? First we have to get to parity and equity and stop trying to force fit us a program we think is flawed and a scam.

[toldyouso21]

What does this have to do with illegal immigration? because the present day illegals step onto a scene where many jobs of Americans have been outsourced to India and Mexico--there are less to go around. We see preferential treatment already afforded people who are not even citizens--sometimes better treatment and consideration than some citizens get. there is a great post in this thread, that a woman (ladydi) wrote about discrimination she faces in putting her child in school. the reason--her perception is that the school does not think her child meets the criteria (they cater to an immigrant population) this woman, who pays taxes for this school, is told her child cannot attend--but she sees people who are not even American whose children can attend. Do you see why she and others who hear her story might be upset? They see the same race favoritism going on again, as it did for affirmative action as it did in the last amnesty.

[standlee5]

They should have passed this bill. It may not be what everybody wants, but its a start.
Posted by donnie900 at 06:09 PM : Jun 08, 2007


No, ya know, I was just thinking today how sometimes doing nothing is better than doing the wrong thing especially when it's irreversible. I hope we can all have a good weekend and get back to the drawing board and fix the problem for real. Also, one last thing, often times the best solutions are the least complicated. That bill was too complex to be realistic.

[toldyouso21]

Special programs that encouraged diversity like integration and much needed incentives in the job markets for minorities seemed to be great ideas--but between the uppermiddle class whites who could get loans or had stocks and the poor blacks and others who got preferential monies for college in grants--were an entire group of forgotten Americans. Too poor to get the loans, but too self sufficient to qualify for grants --they began to lose out. This made many Americans resent what they saw as advantages aimed at one group. The problem is--when Congress begins to focus on one issue--they get tunnel vision and cannot see the periphery issues. so groups get left out--and the penalty seems to be because they are not part of the "pet group". Others shrug it off or discount it--but the unequal treatment is very real. Though many minorities can claim of mistreatment--there is no way to compensate and it cannot be done at the expense of the decendants of the problem. In other words whites cannot be penalized for something they never did--but their ancestors did. Congress replaced one wrong with another wrong--but since the wronged group were white --and white was perceived as already privileged, they were discounted, ignored--they did not matter.

[likeitis5050]

The working, paying rent, raising children, paying taxes is all good and acceptable IF they are doing it all on their own identity. But that is just not the case with all but maybe 2%. Tax time rolls around and they were able, thanks to the IRS, to file taxes, but they still filed under stolen identities. Many walked away with hefty refunds because they claimed 8 and 10 dependents. Only in the last year has any attempt been made to track this kind of activity. The immigrant is not the issue. It's the harm that is done by illegal immigrants who have created all the problems. Personally, I think if someone can prove they have not used social services while they have been here, did not steal an identity to be here, and have a criminal-free background that they should be allowed to stay and put at the head of the line for citizenship. How many do you think would qualify?

[toldyouso21]

After being very honest about why the 1986 plan worked or did not work and what failed--Congress should have salvaged what did work, and said they were doing so--in other words we want the cards on the table--no games--no bs speeches. Tell us straight--why do we have 12 to 20 million people here? Who failed? Was it a grand plan? who lied? If we cannot get this resolved, we will not move past it--the reason is--that in many minds (including mine) this is just the 1986 problem and it will be the same problem in 2026 and 2046 until we are overwhelmed.

We need the ghosts laid to rest--and we do not want grand bargains from people we already see as betraying us. To understand this sentiment, it is important to understand the changes in American suburban and urban areas. Schools have deteriorated, often due to lack of resources and cut funding, hospitals give poor care- we hear it is due to the loss of money from too many people who have no insurance--(illegals) when we are taxed heavier on property, or on Federal, we resent having any of our money go to people who we believe we were tricked into accepting. This is the reason for the mistrust, but there is more

[toldyouso21]

In 1986, we had an influx estimated at 8 million, we were told about the amnesty, and why the system needed to be fixed and why the new laws would stop it from happening again. Well--8 million did not come in, closer to 12 million came in (some say higher) jobs that were plentiful slowed down and the amnestied began to compete with other groups for jobs. Imagine if you have a good job in your country and a group came in from say, Argentina. They competed and took jobs, maybe they told you not to come back to work, because they hired an Argentinian. How would you feel? the past is a painful and bitter reminder of what happens when we just let Congress decide for us. Crimes went up, various areas became gang ridden in certain states, drug traffic increased. It was not simply immigrants, it was also economics--so there was and still are trust issues.

What Congress never did, that they should have done--was revisit the bills of 1986 act by act, tactic by tactic and explain why it all failed. Because we do not trust them--and since many support people who are not even from this country--we feel they do not represent us and they are not loyal to American citizens. So how can we get the trust back? because until we do--we will balk at any offer and believe it is more of the 1986 game. End of part 2

[toldyouso21]

Posted by multyusa at 10:03 PM : Jun 08, 2007

Here is my biggest problem with amnesty: when a group is rewarded, it inspires others to do the same. Some will say there are penalties--(the 8K in processing fees) but such an amount is nothing compared to not having to wait 15 years in the immigration line, already able to live here and work, etc--this is a problem, because there is the concern that illegals will burden the rest of America with higher taxes, poorer schools (due to language issues), higher crime, etc. Not all of that can be laid at the immigration door, but in times of unrest or financial or national insecurity it may be the blaming point anyway.

First, I think everyone should admit it is amnesty--now here is the hard part--convince us. Not with the work arguement or what businesses want--listen to us--pull out the old program and show us why we have to revisit this issue again. What happened. We rebel--because we were told in 1986 that that was a 1 and only amnesty and the "laws" would fix the problem--but it didn't. Now it seems the same is being put on the table--by the same people who put it there before and we do not accept it. end of part 1

[toldyouso21]

But in your point of view what to do with this 20 million people that are already here...working...paying rent...buying groceries...paying insurance...taxes...all sort of bills...own houses%u2026business%u2026and have American children%u2026? Certainly is not alternative to hunt them down and send them back...Posted by multyusa at 10:03 PM : Jun 08, 2007


Actually, it was you who caused me to write this long post about the blog. When I asked you the question about whether you were an anchor baby or what--you could have responded with insults or invectives--instead you were gracious--and it caught me off guard. I'm not going to say you changed my mind about amnesty--but you did cause me to reflect and reconsider some of the premises for my points. You did not do it by being rude or even by banter--you were very honest and to the point and I could only respond in kind. So I have to rethink why so many do not embrace English and how we may or may not make it hard for them. It was the way we dialogued that allowed me to be receptive and not defensive to what you were saying. You did not appear to have an agenda--you just shared and wanted the same in return.

[toldyouso21]

If you care about the war, or the troops or immigration--then we all matter, and even though no one may know you personally, they may be following your work, maybe even saving posts to send to you*. Blogs are powerful not for where the blog is or who owns it--but for the ideas that stream across and for who tells others to read it or emails a post to others.

*someone sent me a yahoo post claiming I reminded them of a poster they used to follow. Surprise--it was one of my posts on another site.
So while it is fun and even amusing to shoot each other down--there is actually more to it than this. I often wonder if my posts aided or diminished my point or my cause. I'd say in this particular instance, the name calling and race baiting did not work in the favor of those for amnesty--but if you look at the posts--there is a trend--because what we write does matter.

and how it affects others or makes us and our cause/party/idea look to others does matter. It is a shame if you have a good point and let your temper or intolerance or prejudices or closemindedness destroy it. And it is equally a shame when anyone has a good point and our temper and intolerance and prejudices and closemindedness does not let us see it.

Sometimes we stand so close to the playing and we are so into our tactics--that we cannot see the game anymore, but don't worry--others, who may never, ever post themselves--can.

FINALLY. THE END.

[reel-crazy]

Amusing info for those who are unaware of it...

For those of you having difficulty getting thru to your Senator, here is the 800 # paid for by the Mexican Amnesty Activists:

800-882-2005

This will get you directly to your Senator unlike the #'s available to the US Citizen.

Press 1 when you hear a Spanish message, then Press 1 again to be transferred to your Senior Senator's office;

OR

Press 2 when you hear a Spanish message, and you'll be transferred to your junior senator's office.

USE THEIR 800 NUMBERS!

[multy]

Toldyouso21 you really represent one's side on this debate...and is nice to blog with you because as you said if we understand each other opinions we certainly can come to a conclusion together...But in your point of view what to do with this 20 million people that are already here...working...paying rent...buying groceries...paying insurance...taxes...all sort of bills...own houses%u2026business%u2026and have American children%u2026? Certainly is not alternative to hunt them down and send them back...It's just not going to happen...What we do..?. Call amnesty if you want....but something must be done...they are 10% of our population...
Thanks for de dialogue...

[toldyouso21]

Do you merely proclaim your side--and everyone else are "morons" or bigots? Are they a joke to you? I was surprised at how many on the right confessed to leftist ideas and identified with someones remarks--the same happened on issues from the left. the fact is, few of us our purists. Many of us have conservatist views on some things (like maybe the use of military might) and liberal views on others--like maybe the promotion of a free market---I believe that bill was the product of our blogs on CBS and other blogs around the country. People had favorite posters and ones they hated, in a way--we are out Rush Limbaughing Rush limbaugh aout out Franckening Francken.
So are you helping or hurting your cause today? Is it just a game /pastime and you could care less about the effects? Are you a paid hack--or maybe a poster who would like to be paid?

It matters if the opposing citizens of this country feel as if they do not matter to the rest. that even illegal immigrants trump them and laws are playthings to impose on others--both sides do it. It matters when you write something inspirational, only to deflate it with a ongoing feud with another poster.

end of 7

[toldyouso21]

Rep. King stated he got over 500 emails and only 1 was for the illegal amnesty. Think it matters when people say it is not amnesty? A good post on a blog can spread a differing view like wildfire. This side matters. YOu can act like it doesn't that people who you do not know are stupid or racists or closeminded and you can banter or rant or ridicule---but who are you alienating--yet another caller who will contact their Congressmen?

This may be a boring post--and I do not care if it is read--because it really is not for any poster who doesn't get it--you represent your view and if you espouse it --your party--and you either elevate or intrigue others by your posts or you turn them off, maybe even anger them enough to make them leave your party's camp.
consideration: consider that it is not fair if some cut in front of others--especially since when this is said, the left blows it off and never answers or even recognizes this. It is not fair for people to be here for years and only have to pay a few thousands in fines. It is not fair to have to pick up school or health tabs for people who in many minds should not be here. Now. some may disagree--but how you disagree--is the key. Do you enterain and consider that maybe the right has a few points? Understand that even all the left may not be as zealous about some issues as others.

end of 6