Comments on: Hillary Seeks To End War Authorization

Clinton, With Sen. Robert Byrd, To Push Bill Requiring President To Get War Reauthorization From Congress

[david1737]

Don't forget the $$$ cost of the war in Iraq. Bin Laden's stated objective is to run America to economic ruin. All wars create a temporary shot in the arm economically. In this case many of the companies who are profiting are off shore.

[rsoxfan1123]

realpatriot1-it is possible to have discussion with repubs without the name calling and whatnot, but to be totally honest, they know they don't have a leg to stand on and they typically lie. Even in my daily life, I can't stand it when someone lies to me knowingly. It seems there are three kinds of repubs- the rendecks that are peering anxiously out their windows with gun in hand looking for the terrorists, those that simply refuse to face the truth of what their party has done, and the ones that know full well what is happening and lie and distort reality on this page to mislead the casual reader-i.e. the paid RNC trolls.

[realpatriot1]

rsoxfan & toldyouso,

I agree with you both. I'm not saying let's all hold hands and sing *** Ba Ya(sp?).

US_infidel didn't lie to get us into war, Bush did. I don't agree with infidel's logic or general thought process but I think he's a sincere person who believes that staying the course is what's best for the country. When that doesn't happen he'll be blaming the liberals and that will **** me off. I'm just saying we all need at some point to try healing the wounds rather than pouring salt into them.

I didn't mean to seem like I was singling rsoxfan or NYCKATE out for that advice or precluding myself or US_infidel either.

The clock is running out on this adminstration and this conflict(The War on terror is a war,Iraq is a conflict). I'm concerned about the longer view. We desparately need as a nation to have some post-op discussion on this fiasco; we didn't after Vietnam because of the raw nerves. We're paying the price now by repeating our mistakes. We need to achieve some level of civility to even discuss this and to not just preach to the chior but reach out to one another or we'll find ourselves back here again.

[rsoxfan1123]

toldyouso21-we can't fix all the world's problems. We don't have the money or lives to sacrifice. I work to pay my bills and support my wife and kids. I can't afford to see my tax dollars disappear into a foreign country while my kindergarten age daughter gets 30 kids in her overcrowded class because there's no moeny for the schools. Maybe I am being a bit darwinistic, but like I said, we need to get our own house in order before we run around cleaning everyone else's. Idealism runs into reality.

[toldyouso21]

As bad as this may sound compared to the universalist type concern you are expressing, toldyouso, I really don't care that much about Iraq. I do feel badly that an idiot like Bush wreaked so much havoc, Posted by rsoxfan1123 at 11:45 AM : May 04, 2007

I care about all human life--so I do care about Iraq. I also care about justice and honor and decency--so I never bought into this war, or the destruction of anyone that had not done anything to us. We can try to do the wrong things----for all the right reasons--but right or wrong never negated death or destructions. In other words--death for anyone is not less painful, horrific and depraved, just because we think we have a good cause. it is still death and that is wrong. if we must kill, let it be in defense and to protect, not for oil or to force our way of governing on others. No matter how terrible Saddam was--we did not have to join him in destroying the Iraqi people--and we have joined him. Deaths by him--death by us--families still have to mourn the loss.

[toldyouso21]

This really points to morality and how people view life--all lives--not just AMerican ones. Some can justify any depravity and cheer it on--it is like a video game to them--others can not--you will never get help from them in doing what they have decided is illegal, unjust or evil.

And here is wisdom--when people perceive an act as a very real evil--they want the evil to LOSE--because it is not about props or points or winners--they want the evil to lose--because if it triumphs it will continue, get bigger and spread. No matter what, the only people who can really say whether the war was worth it , or if the dying was worth it--are not the invaders (us) it is the people we forced this all on. Ask them if dying so Americans could bring them "democracy" was worth their son, daughter, mother--their culture, their communities. Because if we say it is worth it--we have no reference point--since everything we have done is voluntary and for our own reasons (and most of us have done very little)whereas Iraqis never had a choice, our war and the effects of our occupation were imposed on them.

[toldyouso21]

Where do we go from here? Cons feel that, no matter what--right or wrong; our job is to finish this war and stick together. They fail to see that in fighting THIS war--we were never together in the first place. In the old adage "United we stand, divided we fall" It was especially telling when many Americans did not notice or care that many were divided and pressed on--bad intel or not. Now the clarion call from the right is for the left to suck it up and help with the fight. Consider if the issue is not idealogical or theoretical like it is with many on the right--and it is not even about winning or losing. Consider if this is a moral fight for many, who see a war based on lies and greed, and the use of torture and WP and all the death as evil. For such a mindset--there is no joining together of both sides to complete the job. It would be like a mass murderer, hacking and slicing his way through a bunch of people and turning to a bystander and saying, "I can't do it all alone, here grab one of those axes and help me, kill the rest of them"

People do NOT want to help. They want it to stop. They think this is evil or fruitless or both--it is not about even a quitter mentality. For many, the deaths in Iraq are not collateral. They are babies and children and men and women who days or months before--had dreams and hopes like us--and they are now dead due to our opening the pandora's box in Iraq. That is almost unforgiveable. end of part 1

[rsoxfan1123]

As bad as this may sound compared to the universalist type concern you are expressing, toldyouso, I really don't care that much about Iraq. I do feel badly that an idiot like Bush wreaked so much havoc, but I didn't vote for him and personally did not have anything to do with it. Simply being an American doesn't make me feel like I am personally repsonsible. I said this would happed before we went in and wasn't surprised when it did. I say bring our troops home and let the UN move in or just say screw it. The blood is on the hands of the people that created this mess. We have enough problems that need our tax dollars here at home.

[toldyouso21]

Let's all try to show a littile more respect and civilty and realize it's not about changing anyone, it's about surviving together.
Posted by realpatriot1 at 11:28 AM : May 04, 2007

well said, however, I'd like to add, that the privilege and blessing of surviving is not just for Americans--you see so much venom and rancour that is really anguish. The anguish of seeing so many in Iraq suffer or be killed and knowing it was American ignorance, lies, meddling and apathy and the placing in power of Bush for the second time that opened the door to this carnage.
Fealty among Americans is one thing--but when faced with egregious acts by one's own, at some point for the good of not only America, but the world--we MUST call them out and set them apart to be judged or punished--lest they regroup, make themselves idealogical martyrs and do it all over again (like Germany did in WWI and WWII). I was in school during the 60s and do remember the protests and the view of Vets--though it was wrong--it is also wrong to hero worship or feel one cannot protest the war and one does NOT have to support the troops. We are like a pendulum--swinging from one extreme to another. As if we are not mature enough as a country and people to seek equilibrium and balance.

[rsoxfan1123]

for many in both parties--pleasing their base means more than the truth, justice--or Iraqi and American lives--this is just a sad fact.
Posted by toldyouso21

Cynical but probably true. Every once in awhile you have a major insight. I still retell your schoolyard bully and the parents defending him analogy.