Comments on: Power Without Responsibility
The Nation: Surveillance Legislation Boosts Surveillance On Citizens With No Accountability
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- It continues to amaze me that there are still so many people out there who totally believe that Bush and the neocon gang in the White House are doing nothing wrong. All I can say is that there were misguided fools in pre-war Nazi Germany, who thought Hitler and the Nazis were the best thing since sliced bread. Hitler brought "prosperity" and work to the average person by building a war machine to conquer the world with. The hated Jews and Communists were thrown in camps, or exiled to anywhere else but the Reich, and through constant propoganda in the news and on radio, he created such hatred among the German people for anyone or anything "non-German" that he authorized the killing of millions of people, justifying it by saying they were "inferior". Children turned against parents, wives against husbands, brothers against brothers, all to save their own skins.
If all this sounds familiar, you only have to look at the White House in Washington, and a spineless body of lawmakers in Congress to see history repeating itself ON OUR OWN TURF!!!
SIG HEIL, BUSH!!! - Reply to this comment
- 17 more months before America returns to normal and this nightmare will be over, wow, what a ride! Who knew?
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- we have government oversight cause were a nation of overweight jackasses in SUV's and minivans begging daddy to protect us from the bad people. get a grip. this is like watching a slow motion train wreck. so many people in this country appear too lazy, frightened, self absorbed and media influenced to think. had this country started with this kind of populace we'd still all be British citizens. go pray for some heart. 9/11 = Perl Harbor? Yo, retards, Japan is a country, with a government, terrorists are terrorists because they don%u2019t have a country. Clinton was at least right anti-terrorism is a police action. so much more money comes from war than peace is just our bad luck. Sniff.. sniff, coffee, must be decaf, cause you all asleep. Apparently, magical thinking is the norm these days. In reality, the environment is wrecked, the economy is "at risk" the constitution is being used as toilet paper, and we looking for others to solve our problems, yep, pure baby boom mentality. Me first! I guess every empire must atrophy and decay eventually. have fun spending your cash in the ashes. oh, and if your religious, maybe you should pray for forgiveness. you've really screwed your children%u2019s country (planet) and future.
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- Are you kidding me? You're actually surprised this passed? The ruling elite are behind this. It sets up a framework for broad public control and influence by the powers that be. This is basically setting up a sub-network to work within the framework of the NAU/RealID system that has already been pushed through (w/o American knowledge or congressional approval).
Its all far beyond the US Government, Bush, Congress, American in general. Those of you saying the Dems failed or the Repubs killed more of our constitutional rights are saying exactly what the engineers of world control want you to say...the Dem/Rep system is merely a ruse used to keep us blind to what's really happening in the world. We're at the whims of the international banking cartel, and have been for over a century, and it won't end any time soon, save for a national revolution.
But we're far too short of being enlightened as a nation to realize that possibility. - Reply to this comment
- No checks and balances result in abuses.
On March 9, 2007, a Justice Department audit found that the FBI had "improperly and, in some cases, illegally used the USA Patriot Act to secretly obtain personal information" about United States citizens.
On June 15, 2007, following an internal audit finding that FBI agents abused a Patriot Act power more than 1000 times, U.S. District Judge John D. Bates ordered the agency to begin turning over thousands of pages of documents related to the agency's national security letters program.
Posted by IOWEIGN at 04:40 PM : Aug 08, 2007
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****your retort pretty much indicated that THERE ARE CHECKS AND BALANCES..if there is none..you would have nothing to post - Reply to this comment
- No checks and balances result in abuses.
On March 9, 2007, a Justice Department audit found that the FBI had "improperly and, in some cases, illegally used the USA Patriot Act to secretly obtain personal information" about United States citizens.
On June 15, 2007, following an internal audit finding that FBI agents abused a Patriot Act power more than 1000 times, U.S. District Judge John D. Bates ordered the agency to begin turning over thousands of pages of documents related to the agency's national security letters program. - Reply to this comment
- J_F_Reese
great analogy Jenga - Reply to this comment
- Posted by J_F_Reese at 03:44 PM : Aug 08, 2007
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the Nazis had complete control under a dictatorship. Bush has the DNC to check his movements. The catch-22 with Bush is that he is doing a such a good job protecting everything stateside from terrorist attacks that the American public is starting to again forget that there was an attack, that there is an ongoing tide of plans to attack and Americans are again becoming comfortable with their safety. We are so far detached to the cruelty of terrorism that the saying applies..%u2019out of sight..out of mind%u2019 I ask again, what rights did you loose? Name an instance in which an American citizen was arrested, prosecuted and jailed ON NON-TERRORIST RELATED MATTERS using the patriot act? My point is, due to the lack of a sophisticated technology wire tapping must be done in a very broad manner. Now to police this process, I don%u2019t think that any NON-TERRORIST RELATED CASES with evidences gathered under the patriot act will be valid in any court. So pretty much Al Franken or Rush Limbaugh or whomever cannot be prosecuted for tax-evasion or murder, child port, drug running or what have you USING EVIDENCES that was obtained by wire tapping under the patriot act.
Posted by xzavierbrown at 04:28 PM : Aug 08, 2007
Privacy lost! - Reply to this comment
- Some of the Intel gathered was already accessible though judical and legistalive oversight - now there is no oversight.
Where there is no oversight there is abuse - I am not pointing a finger at any one or party - just check pass practices.
To those who have followed this administration's legal strategy closely, the outcome should be no surprise. The law's most important effect is arguably not its expansion of raw surveillance power but the sloughing away of judicial or Congressional oversight. In the words of former CIA officer Philip Giraldi, the law provides "unlimited access to currently protected personal information that is already accessible through an oversight procedure."
Posted by IOWEIGN at 03:18 PM : Aug 08, 2007
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but any information gathered cannot be used on AMERICAN CITIZENS on NON-TERRORIST charges.
its pretty much a murderer cannot be prosecuted if he was accidentally taped confessing to his crime because it would be evidence that was ill-gotten, what more of an oversight do you need?
and no, I dont think this administration has anything sinister or as elaborate as a movie script. This administration is out on 2008, another administration is taking over. If bush has some skeletons during his tenure, I am sure it would not override the incoming one - Reply to this comment
- As far as the Democrats. man, what would you expect? this is a Democracy, the lowest common denominator wins. or the largest *** gets the ring, whatever you want to say. these guys are all totally useless, why do you think they%u2019re on Government salaries?
everyone in government is bought and paid for. do you have ANY idea how much money this program will generate for everyone involved? AT&T, private jails, etc. man, this is a cash cow. get over it. - Reply to this comment
- Posted by J_F_Reese at 03:44 PM : Aug 08, 2007
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the Nazis had complete control under a dictatorship. Bush has the DNC to check his movements. The catch-22 with Bush is that he is doing a such a good job protecting everything stateside from terrorist attacks that the American public is starting to again forget that there was an attack, that there is an ongoing tide of plans to attack and Americans are again becoming comfortable with their safety. We are so far detached to the cruelty of terrorism that the saying applies..%u2019out of sight..out of mind%u2019 I ask again, what rights did you loose? Name an instance in which an American citizen was arrested, prosecuted and jailed ON NON-TERRORIST RELATED MATTERS using the patriot act? My point is, due to the lack of a sophisticated technology wire tapping must be done in a very broad manner. Now to police this process, I don%u2019t think that any NON-TERRORIST RELATED CASES with evidences gathered under the patriot act will be valid in any court. So pretty much Al Franken or Rush Limbaugh or whomever cannot be prosecuted for tax-evasion or murder, child port, drug running or what have you USING EVIDENCES that was obtained by wire tapping under the patriot act. - Reply to this comment
- Say, isn't this all legislation basically straight out of the old Soviet Playbook? Looks like the *** commies are running the USA!
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- With all due respect, xzavierbrown, it is people with your frame of mind that scare the heck out of me. It is people with your frame of mind that allowed their Jewish neighbors to be rounded up and killed by the Nazis. Please do not view this as a personal attack, because that is not my intent. I must, however, implore you to look at this issue outside of "the terrorists are coming to get you" mindset. Listen, if you are willing to give up the rights that our forefathers fought for us to have because you are afraid of what a terrorist might do to you, then the terrorists have already won. The thing that Islamic radicals hate most about America is our freedom - our Constitutional Rights - and every time someone like you rolls over and gives up one of those rights, the terrorists win. Increasingly, in my mind, the greatest danger to our Country and our way of life is a certain blue-blood from Connecticut who likes to talk with a Texas drawl.
Before I go, let me leave you with a question... How many of our Constitutional Rights are you willing to give up in return for a "no-guarantees," false sense of security, and which Rights are they? If you have ever played Jenga before, then you know that each time you pull out a block, the entire structure gets weaker and less stable. Eventually, the wrong block gets pulled and the entire structure collapses. - Reply to this comment
- Here is the kicker, the president can now legally label anyone an 'enemy combatant' for any reason whatsoever, and have you detained indefinitely without charges. Add that to the fact that due to this law the NSA can spy on you with no oversight and no warrant in an individual case. Does that sound American to you?
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so why worry?
Posted by xzavierbrown at 02:21 PM : Aug 08, 2007
Some of the Intel gathered was already accessible though judical and legistalive oversight - now there is no oversight.
Where there is no oversight there is abuse - I am not pointing a finger at any one or party - just check pass practices.
To those who have followed this administration's legal strategy closely, the outcome should be no surprise. The law's most important effect is arguably not its expansion of raw surveillance power but the sloughing away of judicial or Congressional oversight. In the words of former CIA officer Philip Giraldi, the law provides "unlimited access to currently protected personal information that is already accessible through an oversight procedure."- Reply to this comment
- Posted by andor3 at 02:34 PM : Aug 08, 2007
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As I understand this, this would be used only for TERRORIST RELATED CASES AGAINST foreign persons or entity. Pretty much, it would be just like 'evidence seized illegally due to no warrant' on other cases..may it be criminal or civil or federal - Reply to this comment
- sjc_1 has a great idea: make the trade-off between security and losing rights explicit--what is gained for what is lost exactly? There should be a sunset provision--if a new idea does not yield measurable results it becomes invalid.
Of course this could be extended--wonder how many Americans would agree to give up the Bill of Rights for a $10 credit on their income tax? - Reply to this comment
- as far as I understand this, we are to tap telecommunications to listen to what our enemies are 'saying'. Now, since our technology is pretty limited..they have to just 'sort' out what is 'enemy' and what is 'american civilian' information that they get SO THEY CAN USE IT TO PREVENT ANY ACTION FROM TERRORISM. Now if they are going to use this act to prosecute Jose or John or Lee for fraudulent whatever..then that case would be in violation. There is no provision that they can use whatever they get from that wire tapping business against anybody OTHER THAN TERRORIST RELATED CASES.
so why worry? - Reply to this comment
- I would say that for every right we have to give up there should be a payback in security that we think is worth it. How many bad guys were caught using the Patriot Act? I do not know and I have never heard, has anyone? If we are to give up our liberties and freedoms in the name of security, we should be given the facts so that we can make an informed, intelligent and rational decision about this.
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