Comments on: Denying The People's Will On Iraq

The Nation: Democrats Need To Become Unified And End The War

[tbweb]

socrates392 wrote:

tbweb,

Then we are more or less in agreement, except for one crucial point: I don't think the war, even in its beginning phases, was a golden opportunity. I think the current civil strife was a forgone conclusion, an inevitable consequence of us removing Saddam. Saddam's brutality was all that held the Sunnis and Shiites in check. By removing Saddam, we thus set the stage for renewed ethnic clashes.

If our leaders would have had even a cursory understanding of Sunni / Shiite relations in Iraq, they would have foreseen this sectarian violence. The tension between Sunnis and Shiites was no secret before 2002. In fact, Bush senior had stopped short of invading Bagdhad in the first gulf war because he was worried about enflaming sectarian violence. Bush Sr. wisely did not want the US to become an occupying force, trapped between warring ethnic factions.

The simple fact is that the Iraq War was a recipe for disaster from the beginning. Our good intentions clouded our reason. And now we and the Iraqis must pay the price. . .

Posted by socrates392 at 06:23 PM : May 26, 2007

socrates392,,,

Agreed! But the million dollar question will always be was it better to leave Saddam in place or remove him? Seems like a no win situation either way and with over 25,000 U.S. wounded and 3439 U.S. deaths maybe invading Iraq wasn't worth this price in U.S. treasure and its not over yet! :(

stupidcbs3, this is not a CBS piece, it is by The Nation. CBS also has pieces by the National Review if you want a right-wing perspective.

[socrates392]

tbweb,

Then we are more or less in agreement, except for one crucial point: I don't think the war, even in its beginning phases, was a golden opportunity. I think the current civil strife was a forgone conclusion, an inevitable consequence of us removing Saddam. Saddam's brutality was all that held the Sunnis and Shiites in check. By removing Saddam, we thus set the stage for renewed ethnic clashes.

If our leaders would have had even a cursory understanding of Sunni / Shiite relations in Iraq, they would have foreseen this sectarian violence. The tension between Sunnis and Shiites was no secret before 2002. In fact, Bush senior had stopped short of invading Bagdhad in the first gulf war because he was worried about enflaming sectarian violence. Bush Sr. wisely did not want the US to become an occupying force, trapped between warring ethnic factions.

The simple fact is that the Iraq War was a recipe for disaster from the beginning. Our good intentions clouded our reason. And now we and the Iraqis must pay the price. . .

[tbweb]

hungry1968,,,

You are tough on Pres. Bush, I'm not sure I would agree with evil. Stubborn, bull headed, cocky and not a team player are terms I would use to describe Pres. Bush.

[tbweb]

middleman8 wrote:

tbweb old fellow

I've gone through your statements and realized where the fault is. It apears to me all of your opinions are backed from propaganda statements and lies put out over the last few year's by the "decider". I have to admit He has a great smooth runing propaganda machine and a lot of people will be taken in,but try and rise above his word,it is evil.

Posted by middleman8 at 06:03 PM : May 26, 2007

middleman8,,,

I'm a news junkie with multiple independent input sources, my thoughts are a compilation of that collection, I think I have it right but admit I could be wrong in some cases, many of my Post are thoughts and ideas, not facts. I also think its important to consider all sides, all angles and try and keep as much emotion out as possible, be objective as possible which is very hard to do!

[tbweb]

socrates392 wrote:

To call the current civil war in Iraq a "golden opportunity" is cring worthy . . . you can't spread democracy through military conquest ...

Posted by socrates392 at 05:24 PM : May 26, 2007

socrates392,,,

What I was calling a golden opportunity was the beginning phases, prior to the Shiite and Sunni slaughter of each other, prior to the Civil War going on now. While the U.S. did not force the Iraqis to choose democracy the U.S. did sort of coerce the Iraqis in that direction by noting that the U.S. would not support or finance any other type of government, but even with that hanging over their the Iraqis were still free to choose any form of government the wanted. Things turned out bad, but on the whole the U.S. had good intentions for the Iraqi people. Many have said the Bush administration mismanaged the war, and tried to do it on the cheap with too few troops, I think the results speak for themselves.

[middleman8]

tbweb old fellow

I've gone through your statements and realized where the fault is. It apears to me all of your opinions are backed from propaganda statements and lies put out over the last few year's by the "decider". I have to admit He has a great smooth runing propaganda machine and a lot of people will be taken in,but try and rise above his word,it is evil.

[cpbroaddus]

This guy is an idiot. I am so tired of people electing ignorance to power. We have to stop industry and politics from destroying the few things we have left in this world. Things which have been destroyed in less 100 years.

[tucano2]

Wow, talk about denying Americans what we demand! The Predident and some in the Senate have turned a deaf ear to Americans, at least 80 percent of us, who want (1) our borders sealed, (2) Illegal Aliens deported, (3) Employers of Illegal Aliens given harsh hard time jail terms plus monumental fines, (4) The giant Corporate Welfare and AMNESTY package in the Senate squashed, (5) English only as the one and only language on OUR airwaves as well as 100 percent of anything printed at taxpayer expense. We Americans demand our Senators and Representatives represent the USA and not foreign
lobbiests.

[socrates392]

Hey tbweb,

I don't remember saying anything about whether Saddam was a great leader, or whether the Iraqis did or did not initially support the US invasion. For the record, Saddam was a brutal dictator. I'm glad he's gone, as are most of the Iraqis I'm sure. But that doesn't make the current situation any less horrific. To call the current civil war in Iraq a "golden opportunity" is cring worthy . . . Maybe in some mystical world of platonic ideals that is true, but not in reality. In reality it is a bloodbath-- an easily forseeable, utterly pointless bloodbath.

You want to know what the historical lesson out of all this is: you can't spread democracy through military conquest-- especially in regions that don't have a historical legacy of democracy. It simply doesn't work. There is probably also a lesson somewhere in all this about the efficacy of preemptive war. I'd doubt there are many historians out there who actually think that the Iraq war has made the world any safer for democracy.

Tbweb, you clearly have good intentions. I think most Americans also had good intentions when they initially supported the war, but good intentions don't change the nature of the war. The war was / is a disaster for the Iraqis, for the US and the world.