Comments on: Denying The People's Will On Iraq

The Nation: Democrats Need To Become Unified And End The War

[tbweb]

socrates392 wrote:

tbweb,

Then we are more or less in agreement, except for one crucial point: I don't think the war, even in its beginning phases, was a golden opportunity. I think the current civil strife was a forgone conclusion, an inevitable consequence of us removing Saddam. Saddam's brutality was all that held the Sunnis and Shiites in check. By removing Saddam, we thus set the stage for renewed ethnic clashes.

If our leaders would have had even a cursory understanding of Sunni / Shiite relations in Iraq, they would have foreseen this sectarian violence. The tension between Sunnis and Shiites was no secret before 2002. In fact, Bush senior had stopped short of invading Bagdhad in the first gulf war because he was worried about enflaming sectarian violence. Bush Sr. wisely did not want the US to become an occupying force, trapped between warring ethnic factions.

The simple fact is that the Iraq War was a recipe for disaster from the beginning. Our good intentions clouded our reason. And now we and the Iraqis must pay the price. . .

Posted by socrates392 at 06:23 PM : May 26, 2007

socrates392,,,

Agreed! But the million dollar question will always be was it better to leave Saddam in place or remove him? Seems like a no win situation either way and with over 25,000 U.S. wounded and 3439 U.S. deaths maybe invading Iraq wasn't worth this price in U.S. treasure and its not over yet! :(

stupidcbs3, this is not a CBS piece, it is by The Nation. CBS also has pieces by the National Review if you want a right-wing perspective.

[socrates392]

tbweb,

Then we are more or less in agreement, except for one crucial point: I don't think the war, even in its beginning phases, was a golden opportunity. I think the current civil strife was a forgone conclusion, an inevitable consequence of us removing Saddam. Saddam's brutality was all that held the Sunnis and Shiites in check. By removing Saddam, we thus set the stage for renewed ethnic clashes.

If our leaders would have had even a cursory understanding of Sunni / Shiite relations in Iraq, they would have foreseen this sectarian violence. The tension between Sunnis and Shiites was no secret before 2002. In fact, Bush senior had stopped short of invading Bagdhad in the first gulf war because he was worried about enflaming sectarian violence. Bush Sr. wisely did not want the US to become an occupying force, trapped between warring ethnic factions.

The simple fact is that the Iraq War was a recipe for disaster from the beginning. Our good intentions clouded our reason. And now we and the Iraqis must pay the price. . .

[tbweb]

hungry1968,,,

You are tough on Pres. Bush, I'm not sure I would agree with evil. Stubborn, bull headed, cocky and not a team player are terms I would use to describe Pres. Bush.

[tbweb]

middleman8 wrote:

tbweb old fellow

I've gone through your statements and realized where the fault is. It apears to me all of your opinions are backed from propaganda statements and lies put out over the last few year's by the "decider". I have to admit He has a great smooth runing propaganda machine and a lot of people will be taken in,but try and rise above his word,it is evil.

Posted by middleman8 at 06:03 PM : May 26, 2007

middleman8,,,

I'm a news junkie with multiple independent input sources, my thoughts are a compilation of that collection, I think I have it right but admit I could be wrong in some cases, many of my Post are thoughts and ideas, not facts. I also think its important to consider all sides, all angles and try and keep as much emotion out as possible, be objective as possible which is very hard to do!

[tbweb]

socrates392 wrote:

To call the current civil war in Iraq a "golden opportunity" is cring worthy . . . you can't spread democracy through military conquest ...

Posted by socrates392 at 05:24 PM : May 26, 2007

socrates392,,,

What I was calling a golden opportunity was the beginning phases, prior to the Shiite and Sunni slaughter of each other, prior to the Civil War going on now. While the U.S. did not force the Iraqis to choose democracy the U.S. did sort of coerce the Iraqis in that direction by noting that the U.S. would not support or finance any other type of government, but even with that hanging over their the Iraqis were still free to choose any form of government the wanted. Things turned out bad, but on the whole the U.S. had good intentions for the Iraqi people. Many have said the Bush administration mismanaged the war, and tried to do it on the cheap with too few troops, I think the results speak for themselves.

[middleman8]

tbweb old fellow

I've gone through your statements and realized where the fault is. It apears to me all of your opinions are backed from propaganda statements and lies put out over the last few year's by the "decider". I have to admit He has a great smooth runing propaganda machine and a lot of people will be taken in,but try and rise above his word,it is evil.

[cpbroaddus]

This guy is an idiot. I am so tired of people electing ignorance to power. We have to stop industry and politics from destroying the few things we have left in this world. Things which have been destroyed in less 100 years.

[tucano2]

Wow, talk about denying Americans what we demand! The Predident and some in the Senate have turned a deaf ear to Americans, at least 80 percent of us, who want (1) our borders sealed, (2) Illegal Aliens deported, (3) Employers of Illegal Aliens given harsh hard time jail terms plus monumental fines, (4) The giant Corporate Welfare and AMNESTY package in the Senate squashed, (5) English only as the one and only language on OUR airwaves as well as 100 percent of anything printed at taxpayer expense. We Americans demand our Senators and Representatives represent the USA and not foreign
lobbiests.

[socrates392]

Hey tbweb,

I don't remember saying anything about whether Saddam was a great leader, or whether the Iraqis did or did not initially support the US invasion. For the record, Saddam was a brutal dictator. I'm glad he's gone, as are most of the Iraqis I'm sure. But that doesn't make the current situation any less horrific. To call the current civil war in Iraq a "golden opportunity" is cring worthy . . . Maybe in some mystical world of platonic ideals that is true, but not in reality. In reality it is a bloodbath-- an easily forseeable, utterly pointless bloodbath.

You want to know what the historical lesson out of all this is: you can't spread democracy through military conquest-- especially in regions that don't have a historical legacy of democracy. It simply doesn't work. There is probably also a lesson somewhere in all this about the efficacy of preemptive war. I'd doubt there are many historians out there who actually think that the Iraq war has made the world any safer for democracy.

Tbweb, you clearly have good intentions. I think most Americans also had good intentions when they initially supported the war, but good intentions don't change the nature of the war. The war was / is a disaster for the Iraqis, for the US and the world.

[stupidcbs3]

Wow, CBS, I've known you were liberally biased for some time, but you just continue to push the envelope. Don't you realize that by quoting and leaning on Feingold, you show yourself not to be in the majority, but in the 5 to 10 percent of the most liberal people in America? That Senator from Wisconsin is a whack job nut case that makes Teddy Kennedy look like a conservative. And Russ seems to be proud of these comparisons. So go ahead and quote him all day long. Nobody much is listening to you anymore anyway. Have a nice day.

[hungry1968]

"But the the bigger picture is that what Saddam was doing to the Iraqis was worst. What the U.S. did was the lesser evil and what Saddam did was the greater evil."
Posted by tbweb at 12:20 PM : May 26, 2007

Far more people died under King George's rule in the last 4 years than did under the previous 27 years under Saddam. Under Saddam's rule, it's estimated that 50,000 Iraqi citizens died. Under the Emperor of America, AT LEAST 100,000 died with some estimates well over 500,000.

Note too that Saddam only brutalized his own people. Adolph Bush is torturing the lower and middle classes of America, while bankrupting them, AND killing Iraqi's by thousands.

I don't know where you learned math, but 1 + 1 = 2, and George Bush is a much greater evil than Saddam Hussein ever was.

[tbweb]

socrates392,,,

If the Iraqis thought the U.S. invasion was so bad, so wrong, why didn't the Iraqis put Saddam back in power when they had the chance and tell the U.S. to leave then? The Iraqis were happy to see Saddam and his party and the oppressive Iraqi military removed from power! From this point Iraq should have reconciled its political and religious differences and rebuilt Iraq. During this process Iraq had the choice of chosing any government system it wanted, the U.S. suggested democracy but the Iraqis could have choosen any government system it wanted, the U.S. did not force democracy on Iraq as its assumed, NOT! Instead the Shiites grabbed power and started revenge murders against the Sunnis and the Sunnis retaliated and off Iraq went into slaughtering each other in massive numbers! As bad as Saddam was, as bad as the U.S. invasion was, neither what the U.S. or Saddam did combined can match or exceed the daily massive slaughter of Iraqis and U.S. Forces at the hands of the Shiite and Sunni extremist, war crimes activity in my view!

[tbweb]

socrates392 wrote:

I hope our nation never has the "golden opportunity" to have an external power invade us and impose an alien system of government . . .

Posted by socrates392 at 02:54 PM : May 26, 2007

socrates392,,,

The problem with looking at the Iraq situation and reading a lot of these Post is that in most cases a particular issue involving Iraq is looked at in an isolated context. Looking at a lot of the issues involving Iraq as a stand-a-lone issue doesn't tell the entire story or paint the correct picture! A lot of these Post try to make it seem like the U.S. just up and decided to invade Iraq one day for no reason, forget Saddam's crimes, arrogance, ignoring U.N. resolutions, shooting at the U.S. in the No Fly Zone, diverting U.N. Food for oil money, paying suicide bombers families $25,000US to blow themselves up in Israel, gasing his own people and on and on! The Iraqi's hung Saddam, not the U.S.! The Iraqi's had a window of opportunity to start fresh and can't use the cover of the U.S. invasion to slaughter each other, 2 wrongs never made a right!

[socrates392]

"History will show that in the final analysis, what the U.S. did was give Iraq a new lease on its nation, a chance to start fresh and rebuild a new. But there was so much hate, anger, emotion, politics, religious conflict and revenge that the Iraqis could not see the opportunity before them and missed it! There will be many arguments and debates about how the U.S. went about doing this, but again in the final analysis history will also show the Iraqis missed a golden opportunity that many nations wished it had."

Posted by tbweb at 12:54 PM : May 26, 2007

I hope our nation never has the "golden opportunity" to have an external power invade us and impose an alien system of government . . .

[dolfinity]

We can no longer support the Democratid Party We are only two, but remain hopeful others might follow suit. Our disgust with "Big Talk" and no spine compels us so.

Welcome Independants!

Cindy and Corbett

[sparks224]

The neo-cons laid out their plans in a document called, the Project for a New American Century, in 1997. This thing basically tries to make the case that American imperialism is both good and necessary. It%u2019s amazing to me that they were able to get away with the Iraq invasion AND convince some gullible people that we were doing it to help the Iraqis.

[drummer94]

Unfortunately, it's same old, same old. Politics as usual. And 9 more warriors died. Enjoy your "holiday" mr. president.

[tbweb]

middleman8,,,

History will show that in the final analysis, what the U.S. did was give Iraq a new lease on its nation, a chance to start fresh and rebuild a new. But there was so much hate, anger, emotion, politics, religious conflict and revenge that the Iraqis could not see the opportunity before them and missed it! There will be many arguments and debates about how the U.S. went about doing this, but again in the final analysis history will also show the Iraqis missed a golden opportunity that many nations wished it had.

[tbweb]

middleman8 wrote:

That is the most stupid comment I have ever seen on this board.

Posted by middleman8 at 12:09 PM : May 26, 2007

There are many examples in nature of people and nations doing good things and being appreciated and rewarded for their efforts. But expecting a reward and appreciation goes against nature of the good will act itself. There are many stories where a human helps a wounded lion in the jungle only to come across that same animal again fearing death, but once the animal recognizes the human who saved them, walks away! You are right in one respect that what the U.S. did was bad. But the the bigger picture is that what Saddam was doing to the Iraqis was worst. What the U.S. did was the lesser evil and what Saddam did was the greater evil. The Iraqis has a chance for a fresh start and blew it. You are correct, I agree, but in a larger context you are also wrong too!