Comments on: Rape, Torture In Pics, Ex-U.S. Gen. Says

Antonio Taguba, Who Led Abu Ghraib Prisoner Abuse Probe, Agrees Photos Should Not Be Released

[McHineguy]

You know what? The terrorists don't *want* to slam airplanes in buildings, either. But, they believe that in some cases it works.

You can convince yourself to justify anything once you cross that first line.
Posted by rafterman1 at 11:52 AM : May 28, 2009

Here we go. Another hypothetical counter to actual measurement. Theory in place of observation.

I DONT CARE. I know that it feels good to think our VALUES are better than this and we should condem anyone who doesnt share our VALUES. well, I value lives, innocent lives. And I am perfectly able to make the decision not to cross that line. Lets save lives first, and our values AFTER we have saed the people who can enjoy our values.

[rafterman1]

OK, I understand your values. I disagree with them. I dont want to torture, I dont even want to use "enhanced interrogation". But, I believe that in some cases it works.
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Posted by McHineguy


You know what? The terrorists don't *want* to slam airplanes in buildings, either. But, they believe that in some cases it works.

You can convince yourself to justify anything once you cross that first line.

[iam4honesty]

But, in the end, I don't care if torture cures cancer, solves the energy crisis and makes gold out of straw. It is not worth selling our souls to the devil.
Posted by rafterman1


BRAVO!

Very well put!!

[McHineguy]

But it is not shared by the experts - people in intelligence and interrogation fields. What "the majority" thinks is meaningless. Most experts agree that torture is useless for extracting information. And more importantly, most VICTIMS of torture agree that its useless. Torture victims will say anything to get it to stop and the information is almost always either (a) unreliable or (b) too old to be of much use.

But, in the end, I don't care if torture cures cancer, solves the energy crisis and makes gold out of straw. It is not worth selling our souls to the devil.
Posted by rafterman1 at 11:32 AM : May 28, 2009

OK, I understand your values. I disagree with them. I dont want to torture, I dont even want to use "enhanced interrogation". But, I believe that in some cases it works. and the experts are divided on the issue. Right now, the press gives innordinate attention to those who condem it because they also condem the Bush administration. But I still disagree, in some cases it works and I will do the unthinkable in order to possibly prevet the death or maiming of the innocent.

BTW, that whole discussion that a person under torture will say anything to get it to stop is a red herring. Of course they will. In fact, a person under any form of interrogation is likely to say anything. They arent on our side and should be expected to lie. But a reasonable person knows to verify what they are told. In the case of the three people waterboarded at GITMO, at least one gave up information that led to the intervention of yet another terrorist action. So, out of three scum terrorists we got information that saved at least one innocent life. Thats a good enough trade off for me.

[jxknowles]

I wanted this whole mess to disappear, so we could move on. Sadly, new revelations keep wafting the stench from D ickless Cheney and his partners in goonity back in our faces.

Release the photos. If we have war criminals in our current and prior government. They must be brought to justice.

Justifying rape as a deterrent is insane. I hope those who condoned it rot in hell.

[rafterman1]

rafterman, do you think the terrorists care about our moral standards?
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Posted by notblue

I DON'T CARE what the terrorists do or think of us. Get that through your head. I only care what WE do, how WE act, what OUR morals are.


Explain why it is more important to sacrifice innoecent lives based on a moral standard, -----------------------------
Posted by notblue

If I have to explain it to you, then you will never understand.

[rafterman1]

But here is the rub. Your opinion that enhanced interrogation does not help in saving innocent lives is not shared by the majority.
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Posted by McHineguy


But it is not shared by the experts - people in intelligence and interrogation fields. What "the majority" thinks is meaningless. Most experts agree that torture is useless for extracting information. And more importantly, most VICTIMS of torture agree that its useless. Torture victims will say anything to get it to stop and the information is almost always either (a) unreliable or (b) too old to be of much use.

But, in the end, I don't care if torture cures cancer, solves the energy crisis and makes gold out of straw. It is not worth selling our souls to the devil.

[notblue]

rafterman when you compare terrorists to those who try to stop their savagery, you ignore the motivation. One side wants to save lives while the other wants to destroy them. People like refuse to acknowledge this very important point.

[apostasyusa]

We know what happened. We dont need to see the photos. \


Agreed!

[notblue]

rafterman, do you think the terrorists care about our moral standards? Explain how these standards will save lives when fighting this type of enemy. Explain how this will compel this savage enemy to "change" their techniques? Explain why it is more important to sacrifice innoecent lives based on a moral standard, explain the justification of sacrificing innocent civilian lives because you refuse to roughly interogate the murderers? Try to do this without insults and name calling.

[McHineguy]

No, and its sad because we ARE a great country. This kind of hateful behavior diminishes us. Worse, for many it usually reveals itself to be hatred of Bush/Cheney and they seem willing to trash our military in order to gain a chance at retribution against Bush/Cheney.

Good to see you still here.
Posted by McHineguy at 10:20 AM : May 28, 2009

Funny that people can justify anything their team does and the other side excoriates them with equal fervor.
Posted by _LawyersGuns-n-Money_ at 10:52 AM : May 28, 2009

It is sad.

I think you and I are of different opinions about the effectiveness and the necessity of enhanced interrogation. But I do respect your open minded discorse on these subjects.

[McHineguy]

Why do you have trouble with saving innocent lives?
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Posted by McHineguy


Torture does not save lives. It puts them at risk (our troops' lives). Torture is a tool of terror, not information. The reason Cheney wants you to think that so many lives have been saved is because he knows that even if it were true, that information would never be released, whether torture worked out not. So Cheney can out and out LIE about it because he knows he will never be caught in the lie. You are being bamboozled into giving up your humanity, your honor and the very essence of what makes America good, all for a lie to save a political legacy.
Posted by rafterman1 at 10:56 AM : May 28, 2009

I understand your opinion that harsh interrogation does not save innocent lives. But I disagree as does a large percentage of our country. I also understand that it may fire up the enemy and make him more committed to our destruction. I even believe that is true. That makes me wonder why some Americans are so anxious to release the details and fire up the enemy even more. After all, whose side are they on?

But here is the rub. Your opinion that enhanced interrogation does not help in saving innocent lives is not shared by the majority. Yet, your associates seem to be ready to trash everyone else as if your arrogant opinion were the final decision. Worse, you want retribution against the leaders of our country because they used techniques that you dont agree with.

The pictures described in this article have very little in common with the interrogation that was used at GITMO and sanctioned by Bush. So lets agree this much. The outright abuse of anyone as described in this article is wrong. We should, in private, determine why it happened and take steps so it never happens again. But keep it private so as to not fire up the enemy over something that seems to be constrained to a few overstressed soldiers.

[rafterman1]

You don't see the difference between releasing something to the world news, and a few terrorists sharing information amongst themselves ? no comparison.
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Posted by Joe-NY-6


Same difference. Our enemies already knew and that's all that matters.

[nikosk11]

Torture is un-American. Holding suspects without due process is un-American. When we break the rules we helped write, we only give our enemies legitamacy. Let's just call it a mistake and move on. Enough already.
Posted by smprejean58 at 11:09 AM : May 28, 2009

A "mistake?" You are just as sick as they are.

[rafterman1]

Errorinuse, Is it "dispicable and unethical" to ignore the rules of engagement? The rules of the Geneva convention? To use human shields? To telivise the beheading of noncombatant prisoners? To purposely target innocent civilians? To call for the destruction of an entire nation and people? To fly commercial airliners filled with civilians into buildings full of them? To use any and all means to destroy innocents. To commit acts of savagery a civilized society and people cannot even begin to comprehend?
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posted by notblue

Its the same d@mn argument from you every time. Like a five year old whining that he pinched his sister because his brother did too, all you have is "well, look at what the terrorists do", as if that makes it OK to throw your honor and your humanity in to the garbage. What a coward. That is why we are not the terrorists. Because we Americans find those things despicable and dishonorable. Well, most of us do anyways. Because you see, in the terrorists' minds, they believe they have no choice and that the ends justifies the means. They believe exactly as you do - birds of a feather.

[culturechang]

We know what happened. We dont need to see the photos. The question is whether they will hold anyone accountable. Obama does not appear to want to. A Congressman needs to introduce legislation requiring them to come clean with all of the Bush's secrets and prosecute accordingly.

[smprejean58]

Torture is un-American. Holding suspects without due process is un-American. When we break the rules we helped write, we only give our enemies legitamacy. Let's just call it a mistake and move on. Enough already.

[rafterman1]

if they weren't released and dealt with internally, the enemy would not be aware of such actions and the techniques would be modified and corrected or eliminated.....but when people such as Obama and the Democrats wish to hurt the republicans and release memos for that sole purpose, then it does risk more lives.
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Posted by Joe-NY-6

Are you serious? You honestly think the enemy didn't know we tortured until Obama revealed it?

Terrorist: "What? Wait, are you kidding me? Obama says America tortured our people? Really? That's it, now the Americans will PAY!!!"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, in addition to the Bush administration admitting it themselves, all those guys released from Gitmo by the Bush administration didn't bother to mention it to their terrorist buddies. Sure, right.

LOL.

[notblue]

Errorinuse, Is it "dispicable and unethical" to ignore the rules of engagement? The rules of the Geneva convention? To use human shields? To telivise the beheading of noncombatant prisoners? To purposely target innocent civilians? To call for the destruction of an entire nation and people? To fly commercial airliners filled with civilians into buildings full of them? To use any and all means to destroy innocents. To commit acts of savagery a civilized society and people cannot even begin to comprehend? This is the nature of the enemy we fight and while you call those who feel these tools are necessary to save lives "unethical and dispicable", how would you characterize the enemy guilty of the aformentioned attrocities? Do you feel it is ethical to focus the white hot spotlight on the defenders of this evil without once critisizing the evil that compels us to use these techniques? Are you able to comprehend the difference between the use of torture for control and terrorizing a society and torture to save a society? When dealing with this type of Islamic barbarism, which by the way is unprecedented in the history of war and civilized societies extraordinary measures are needed to combat it. According to people like you "ethics" trumps saving innocent lives. The reality of every citizen in this country is that any one of us would, without hesitation, do whatever is necesary to save a loved one. People like you politisize reality in order to emulate a false moral standard out of hatred for conservative Americans and Bush policies not truth and treality.

[mysteriousjz]

Sooner or later, the greatest satan will retreat or will at least stop meddling with other people lives. The Satan that had killed over 1 million people in their mudhouses just in the last 7 years, coupled with millions maimed, and burned, and mutilated, and now even deliberately tortured is surely the biggest threat in this world.