Comments on: Rape, Torture In Pics, Ex-U.S. Gen. Says

Antonio Taguba, Who Led Abu Ghraib Prisoner Abuse Probe, Agrees Photos Should Not Be Released

[rafterman1]

Read the rest of my post and dont quote it out of context. Its clear, my values put life of innocents over discomfort of known terrorists. Those values dont shift and you misrepresent my post when you imply they do. Even though they are different than yours, they are moral, and of high integrity. As I understand it, you would stand by while innocents die instead of harshly interrogating, perhaps torturing someone who might give life saving information. As I said many times, I do not share those values.
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Posted by McHineguy

I did not take anything out of context. On a couple of occasions, you wrote that you "don't want to torture". Well, then don't condone it. Yet you do condone it because you believe the ends justifies the means. Don't tell me "well, I don't like it and I really don't want to do it, but... No buts. If you don't like the idea of torture, don't shift your values around in order for you to square it OK. And call it what it is. It isn't discomfort. John McCain didn't feel "discomfort" when the VC were beating the crud out of him. It is torture. If you want to do something, then say the words for what it is and stop using euphemisms.


As I understand it, you would stand by while innocents die instead of harshly interrogating, perhaps torturing someone who might give life saving information. As I said many times, I do not share those values.
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Posted by McHineguy

There are other methods to interrogate and gain information, more reliable (and honorable) methods, the same things cops have been doing successfully for 200 years.

[McHineguy]

What I find so disturbing as a Vet is Darth/Bush letting these Troops take the fall for this. There is NO way this was not ordered from above and they, Darth and Bush, being yellow top to bottom do not have the honor to admit it. Safe to say we should THINK the next time we elect a Bar Room Bully to lead our country.
Posted by skyk-2009 at 12:41 PM : May 28, 2009

I highly doubt that any leader would condone such actions. Such leadership would be counterproductive in every way. Moreover, these pictures seem to present the kind of degradation that can occur when guards become overstressed and feel the "need" to victimize someone else.

By your logic, every commander in chief has been responsible for atrocities in war. Check out the MyLai massacre and decide if it was the fault of Lyndon Johnson.

[stevex47]

"Safe to say we should THINK the next time we elect a Bar Room Bully to lead our country."

The scary thing is, the neocons are fervently following a drugged up leader now in limbaw.

Just like manson and hitler followers. Scary.

[skyk-2009]

You say you "don't want to torture". But yet, that's exactly what you do or condone - torture. Real values do not shift with the winds.
.
Posted by rafterman1 at 12:39 PM : May 28, 2009

Correct! There were a LOT of American's died to establish the rules these cowards threw in the trash. I'd be willing to bet IF either of these lower than life creatures, Bush/Cheney, had actually worn the Uniform into Combat they would NOT have ordered Torture.

[McHineguy]

You say you "don't want to torture". But yet, that's exactly what you do or condone - torture. Real values do not shift with the winds.
.
Posted by rafterman1 at 12:39 PM : May 28, 2009

Read the rest of my post and dont quote it out of context. Its clear, my values put life of innocents over discomfort of known terrorists. Those values dont shift and you misrepresent my post when you imply they do. Even though they are different than yours, they are moral, and of high integrity. As I understand it, you would stand by while innocents die instead of harshly interrogating, perhaps torturing someone who might give life saving information. As I said many times, I do not share those values.

[stevex47]

"Ah, but evil advertised and publicized is worse."

Um, wrong. Knowledge of nazi's atrocities at least a little bit, showed how evil hitler and those nutjobs were, hopefully so others would never get that deranged again.

Although boosh-cheny-rove-limbaw are too stupid to learn from it, and tried it again.

Great legacy for boosh and company.

Mission Accomplished.

[skyk-2009]

Ah, but evil advertised and publicized is worse. Even more, claiming evil when there is at least a 40% disagreement opens us for hypocrisy on both sides.
Posted by McHineguy at 12:33 PM : May 28, 2009

What I find so disturbing as a Vet is Darth/Bush letting these Troops take the fall for this. There is NO way this was not ordered from above and they, Darth and Bush, being yellow top to bottom do not have the honor to admit it. Safe to say we should THINK the next time we elect a Bar Room Bully to lead our country.

[rafterman1]

Actually, I have very strong values, they just seem to be different than yours.
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Posted by McHineguy

You say you "don't want to torture". But yet, that's exactly what you do or condone - torture. Real values do not shift with the winds.
.

[skyk-2009]

And a traitor too.
Posted by TheMasses05 at 12:28 PM : May 28, 2009

How's that?

[skyk-2009]

There is no doubt, in anyones mind, liberal or conservative that you are a card carrying member of the National American Socialist Democrat Party NASDP.
Posted by no_socialism at 12:16 PM : May 28, 2009

LOL You ditto heads still trying to find that Wedge? LOL

[McHineguy]

Evil done in secret is not a good.
Posted by Par8ifal at 12:26 PM : May 28, 2009

Ah, but evil advertised and publicized is worse. Even more, claiming evil when there is at least a 40% disagreement opens us for hypocrisy on both sides.

[ubrew12]

no_socialism said: "Borrowers with good credit are getting screwed by those who dont have good credt because they over extended themselves and are living beyond their means."

Well, I think we just went through a period of predatory lending by banks who'd figured out a way to gamble on the 'good name' of the American real estate market. Can't overleverage a repackaged mortgage into a derivative without a mortgage to begin with. So, they lent money to people who couldn't pay it, cuz there were profits to be made off it.

The regulatory agencies were well aware of predatory lending in the early 2000's. As with most things during the Bush years, they did nothing about it.

[McHineguy]

The Romans had a saying "I would rather die a free man than live as a slave". What is life worth without values? You have no values for these lives to enjoy if you ignore them whenever its convenient. Its easy to stick to values when times are good. Its when times are tough that our values have true meaning. Otherwise, its just lip service.
Posted by rafterman1 at 12:03 PM : May 28, 2009

Actually, I have very strong values, they just seem to be different than yours.

I value the lives and health of innocents over the severe discomfort of terrorists. You say torture doesnt work but others say it does. I value the possibility that I can save the life of an innocent over the probability that they will die if I dont do something.

This whole "torture" debate seems to have two motivators:
1. Claims that torture doesnt work so should not be practiced, even when it MIGHT and it MIGHT save lives.
2. A hunt for retribution against the Bush administration. Even at the possibility it will inflame our enemy and cost even more lives.

Based on that, I feel my value of saving lives is more moral than all thoe values of those who would persue this witch hunt.

If the goal was truly one of moral authority we would search for the answers in private discussion within the confines of the CIA (now under Obama) and make policy in private. The decision to make it public has made it political and rife with lies on both sides.

[Par8ifal]

It seems to me that we should be paying more attention to who we are and what we do than to merely who knows about it.

Evil done in secret is not a good.

[ajjaxtheleast]

"EDGER!!!,,,COME LOOK WHAT THEY'RE SHOWING!""

What are they,,,,,,OH MY GOD!!!,,,Can you imagine the parents of that,,,"


"JEANIE!!,,,YOUR FATHER,,,911!!"


"Two thousand pics",,,Some of these soldiers had to be in
more than one performance,,,Could end up having a
a number of fan clubs,,,, both straight and gay,,,

My bet would be on the translater receiving the largest
throng awaiting his plane's touchdown.

Craige and Frank would be elbowing each other for
a front row greeting.

Since "during" would be crass,,,,would you show the actual
performance pics before or after supper?

[McHineguy]

Posted by apostasyusa at 12:01 PM : May 28, 2009

thank you for taking the time to post several opinions that support yours. Im sure you have heard the many opinions that support mine. So, we are pretty much at an impass. I believe that enhanced interrogation CAN work. I believe it was used sparingly and does not include the severe abuse that are described in this article. So, we have experts arguing with experts over who has the moral authority.

I offer one other annectdote from WWII. Churchill had the Enigma machine and was able to decode most of Hitlers field orders. From that machine, Churchill had knowledge that Hitler planned to bomb Cantebury. However, if Churchill protected Cantebury in advance, Hitler would know by implication that Churchil had Enigma. So, Churchill ordered the severe interrogation of several informants to obtain the information Churchill already had. His expectation was that if any informant gave it up, he could protect Cantebury without tipping Enigma. But, alas, none gave it up. So, faced with the choice, Churchill allowed Cantebury to be bombed without preparation. Now, I ask the moral authority these questions:
1. Was Churchill evil for harsh interrogation when he already knew the answer?
2. Was Churchill evil for letting Cantebury go unprotected?
3. If an informant HAD given the information (none of them knew it because Hitler was testing Churchill to see if he had Enigma) would it have been false information?
4. If a leader is willing to go this far to protect their information, why would they risk it all on harsh interrogation if it didnt work?

These are dilema that each man must decide for himself and we as a people must respect how difficult they are. The last thing we should do is persecute those who, in good faith, make decisions different from our own.

these incidents of rape and debauchery are usually the result of overstressed soldiers who are acting without aproval from their own leaders. The second to last thing we should do is to tell the enemy that it is inherent in how we conduct ourelves and provide pictures to inflame them.

[rafterman1]

I DONT CARE. I know that it feels good to think our VALUES are better than this and we should condem anyone who doesnt share our VALUES. well, I value lives, innocent lives. And I am perfectly able to make the decision not to cross that line. Lets save lives first, and our values AFTER we have saed the people who can enjoy our values.
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Posted by McHineguy

The Romans had a saying "I would rather die a free man than live as a slave". What is life worth without values? You have no values for these lives to enjoy if you ignore them whenever its convenient. Its easy to stick to values when times are good. Its when times are tough that our values have true meaning. Otherwise, its just lip service.

[griz326]

The idiots with the camera should have been shot and this would never have come to light. A bunch of LDCS who don't understand, thank you al swearinger.

[apostasyusa]

OK, I understand your values. I disagree with them. I dont want to torture, I dont even want to use "enhanced interrogation". But, I believe that in some cases it works.
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Posted by McHineguy


Petraeus: Torture yields information of questionable value. Some may argue that we would be more effective if we sanctioned torture or other expedient methods to obtain information from the enemy. That would be wrong. Beyond the basic fact that such actions are illegal, history shows that they also are frequently neither useful nor necessary. Certainly, extreme physical action can make someone talk; however, what the individual says may be of questionable value. [Gen. David Petraeus, Letter to Multi-National Force-Iraq

FBI warns military interrogators: Enhanced techniques are of questionable effectiveness. Defense Department interrogators were being encouraged at times to use aggressive interrogation tactics in GTMO which are of questionable effectiveness and subject to uncertain interpretation based on law and regulation. Not only are these tactics at odds with legally permissible interviewing techniques used by U.S. law enforcement agencies in the United States, but they are being employed by personnel in GTMO who appear to have little, if any, experience eliciting information for judicial purposes. The continued use of these techniques has the potential of negatively impacting future interviews by FBI agents as they attempt to gather intelligence and prepare cases for prosecution. [FBI memo, 5/30/03]

FBI cites lack of evidence of [enhanced techniques] success. The differences between DHS and FBI interrogation techniques and the potential legal problems which could arise were discussed with DHS officials. However, they are adamant that their interrogation strategies are the best ones to use despite the lack of evidence of their success. [FBI memo, 5/30/03]

Army psychologist: Enhanced techniques do not work in intelligence-gathering. It was stressed to me time and time again that psychological investigations have proven that harsh interrogations do not work. At best it will get you information that a prisoner thinks you want to hear to make the interrogation stop, but that information is strongly likely to be false. [MAJ Paul Burney, Army?s Behavior Science Consulting Team psychologist, statement to Committee, 8/21/07. Senate Armed Services Report, p.78

[shameonbush]

America shouldn't hide anything like this. This is evidence of crimes against humanity, of war crimes ordered from the highest levels of our government. Somebody has to answer for them. That would be Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld who should be in prison for war crimes. We cannot let this go, hide the photos and expect the world to look the other way. Ridiculous. Let the war crimes trials begin!!