Comments on: Hamas Rejects Egypt's Cease-Fire Plan

Truce Deemed "Risky For The Palestinian Resistance;" Aid Worker For U.N. Killed

[voidmaster-2009]

...despite punchlines to the contrary, they can kick @ss when needed.

Posted by clathrate
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OH yeah! The French military be bad. Any perceived "cowardice" came from their politics, not from their army. And of late, their politicians seems to have grown set.

The thing is, the French are not that prone to interfere in the affairs of other countries. Also, they are seen by some as more sympathetic to the Muslim world just the U. S. is seen as more sympathetic to Israel.

I don''t know if that problem would be as great a risk as with U. S. troops, though. It might be worth a shot if they''d do it.

[mitdgreenb]

Some intelligent, moderate commentary in regards to this ongoing tragedy. THANK YOU to several of you.

I believe a few things:
1) Hamas does not want peace. Not only is it antithetical to their written charter, but also it ensures that they will lose power. Arafat (and Fatah) kept up a state of war because it kept them in power. Hamas is now doing the same. Unfortunately, this means no peace until there is no Hamas.

2) Hamas was elected in a relatively fair election. (That tool Jimmy Carter was an observer I believe.) The Palestinians voted for what they got. If I voted for a Governor or Nebraska who ran on a platform of wiping out Kansas... and then Kansas bombed the he&& out of me, whose fault is that? Let''s give the Palestinians a chance to vote again... knowing full well now what a vote for Hamas means. And then let them, and the rest of the world, live with what they decided for themselves.

3) I agree with the posting on settlements. Even the "legal" settlements are on land of debatable title, and all of them are an obstacle to peace. But do keep in mind that there are no settlements in Gaza any more.

4) We need to show a lot more gore on the Israeli side to balance the gore paraded by the Hamas propaganda machine. Decapitation of Daniel Pearl anyone? Baby injured by rocket fire? Let''s not be fooled because one side likes to publish pictures and the other does not.

[clathrate]

What is not clear is whether the Palestinians want a two state solution or all of Israel.


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Posted by rhs648

Let''s not dodge this issue: yes, they do want all of Israel. But they can''t have it now. That''s why I think, in the VERY long term, the "equilibrium" solution is to have one state that is totally areligious. Talk about wishful thinking though...

[clathrate]

If even one Gazan got killed under questionable circumstances, there would be no convincing the Arab world that the U. S. didn''''t do it just to stand by Israel.


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Posted by VoidMaster

Yes, this is a true political risk. I assume it is what has kept us out of this arena for so long.

The next best choice would be the French. They are pretty copasetic with most of the Middle East, and despite punchlines to the contrary, they can kick @ss when needed.

[voidmaster-2009]

Voidmaster as long as the Turks are in charge,U.S. troops hands are tied by politicians. Where as the Turkish Army pretty much runs their own show.

Posted by jsd330
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Pure logic should pretty much dictate that U. S. and Turkish troops must stay out of it. I realize that there is not much logic or common sense being applied to this matter, but then, there can be no solution without it.

I would tend to agree that both Israel and the Palestinians would likely not openly interfere with a U. S. military operation. But that is not where I see potential problems. If even one Gazan got killed under questionable circumstances, there would be no convincing the Arab world that the U. S. didn''t do it just to stand by Israel.

[clathrate]

Baloney! The Palestinians have been around for 10,000 years. In all that time, NOT ONE. I repeat, NOT ONE contribution to the betterment of mankind.

I cannot think of a single culture in the European or Asian continents that can boast that remarkable achievement.


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Posted by briannorwood

I assume you mean to tell us that virtually every character in the Bible was inconsequential? Recall that ethnically speaking, all jews and Palestinians are Semites. They differ only in religious practice.

I think you have more in common with the wild antisemite on here than anyone else.

[jsd330]

Voidmaster as long as the Turks are in charge,U.S. troops hands are tied by politicians. Where as the Turkish Army pretty much runs their own show.

[clathrate]

NATO is a good choice but that force still should not have Americans or Turkish soldiers. If it does, anything that goes wrong will be blamed on somebody''''s bias.


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Posted by VoidMaster

I agree with you about Turkey. I''m not sure you have to keep the Americans out. In fact, it would be good, because the Israelis won''t dare interfere with an American operation; neither, I suspect, will the Palestinians. Then again, I could be wrong, as neither side seems to have much common sense these days.

[voidmaster-2009]

Baloney! The Palestinians have been around for 10,000 years. In all that time, NOT ONE. I repeat, NOT ONE contribution to the betterment of mankind.

I cannot think of a single culture in the European or Asian continents that can boast that remarkable achievement.

Posted by briannorwood
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I am aware of no evidence to the contrary, but I have not sought any, either. However, I find it remarkably unlikely just from an anthropological point of view that *any* culture could survive that long and not be productive in *some* way. Evolution itself is just not very tolerant of such.

[voidmaster-2009]

clathrate,

I agree that any peacekeeping force must not be UN. NATO is a good choice but that force still should not have Americans or Turkish soldiers. If it does, anything that goes wrong will be blamed on somebody''s bias.

[briannorwood]

"That poverty is kept in place in large part by the restrictions imposed upon them by Israel." -- Voidmaster

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Baloney! The Palestinians have been around for 10,000 years. In all that time, NOT ONE. I repeat, NOT ONE contribution to the betterment of mankind.

I cannot think of a single culture in the European or Asian continents that can boast that remarkable achievement.

[jankebenz]

The headline proves once again that hamas,and other islamic terrorist groups are not intrested in peace,they won.t rest till Israel is gone , then they will set out to conquer the world. Are we bound to make the same mistake as in pre ww2 by letting hitler run over europe and Japan bomb Pearl harbor before we finally took action?
Wisdom says "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".

[rhs648]

Yes clathrate, a viable Palestinian state is the only answer. But there is not going to be one unless its government exercises the discipline to *prevent* terror against Israel from being deployed within its borders.

It is not enough that they do not fire the rockets themselves. They must not allow anyone else within said state to do it either.


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Posted by VoidMaster

This could go a long way in securing a two state solution. What is not clear is whether the Palestinians want a two state solution or all of Israel.

[clathrate]

Anyway, if if we are correct here, then there is not going to be any peace until the Palestinians change their mindset. They are going to have to WANT someone besides Hamas in charge -- and I do not mean Hezbulla.


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Posted by VoidMaster

Not to worry about Hezab Allah, they are a Shiite concern that is only trying to score points in Lebanon. They use the Palestinian situation for their own benefit.

Now, what the West must do is first tell Israel to back off, dismantle all of the settlements (oh, the hullaballoo over that!), and withdraw to the 1967 border. Simultaneously, a large NATO or other EFFECTIVE peacekeeping force (i.e. NOT the UN) has to move in to the Palestinian state to keep peace. You then empower Abbas (while he''s still alive) to hold a Constitutional congress (a lot like what went on in Iraq).

There can be peace, but it is going to take a change in attitudes and a REAL commitment in diplomacy, manpower, money, and hardware from the West.

[debinok1]

Hamas does not want a ceasefire. The palestinian people voted for Hamas. So we can''t oust Hamas and the Palestinians wont. Yet the Palestinians don''t want Israel to fire on them. So the Palestinians need to make a choice. Either get rid of Hamas or deal with Israel bombing Gaza.

[voidmaster-2009]

Can anyone name one single accomplishment of the Palestinian people throughout the entire history of the world? Can you name one great philosopher? Mathematician? Scientist? Writer? Engineer? Artist?

The answer is no. These people are and always have been the armpit of the human race. They are uneducated, uncivilized barbarians. Good for nothing but war. And even that, they can only perform like 6th century peasants.

Posted by briannorwood
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Here''s the thing: Poverty is what keeps them from being productive as it will with any culture.

That poverty is kept in place in large part by the restrictions imposed upon them by Israel.

But Israel cannot safely remove those restrictions because of the presence of things like Hamas.

[McHineguy]

There is only one solution to the problem caused by the jews in the mid-east: The Final Solution.


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Posted by yourself5 at 03:39 PM : Jan 08, 2009

You demean the cause you support. With friends like you, they dont need enemies.

There are a few facts that could support some of the Palestinian position. But you divert rational people from dealing with those.

[briannorwood]

Can anyone name one single accomplishment of the Palestinian people throughout the entire history of the world? Can you name one great philosopher? Mathematician? Scientist? Writer? Engineer? Artist?

The answer is no. These people are and always have been the armpit of the human race. They are uneducated, uncivilized barbarians. Good for nothing but war. And even that, they can only perform like 6th century peasants.

[voidmaster-2009]

Yes, this is correct. And as you can probably surmise, that won''''t happen while Hamas is the de Facto government. The West needs to find a way, and fast, to make Hamas a much less appealing choice.

Posted by clathrate
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The problem is that the people of Gaza apparently want Hamas as their government. That is what much first change. I do believe that is what Israel is trying to instill in them -- but I am afraid not with much success.

Anyway, if if we are correct here, then there is not going to be any peace until the Palestinians change their mindset. They are going to have to WANT someone besides Hamas in charge -- and I do not mean Hezbulla.

[clathrate]

It is not enough that they do not fire the rockets themselves. They must not allow anyone else within said state to do it either.


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Posted by VoidMaster

Yes, this is correct. And as you can probably surmise, that won''t happen while Hamas is the de Facto government. The West needs to find a way, and fast, to make Hamas a much less appealing choice.