Comments on: Catholics To Pope: Lift Birth Control Ban

Dissident Catholic Groups Publish Letter Citing "Catastrophic Effects" Of Church's Ban

[cmoreau2]

A Priest knows better than anyone the challenge presented by following Humanae Vitae. Rather than periodic abstenance for the sake of love, a priest accepts a lifetime of abstenance for love and service to the people of the church. Priests know marriage. They grew up in a family, they eat dinner with families, they help and council many married people and in that respect see more breadth of the challenges that married couples face in general than any one married couple faces itself. They help burry spouces, and help families grieve. An 80 year old celebate has A LOT of wisdom to offer on this issue.

[cmoreau2]

Positive Prophecies

In Humanae Vitae Pope Paul made some positive predictions as well. He acknowledged that spouses might have difficulty in acquiring the self-discipline necessary to practice the methods of family planning that require periodic abstinence. But he taught that self-discipline was possible, especially with the help of sacramental grace. In Section 21, he remarked:

....the discipline which is proper to the purity of married couples, far from harming conjugal love, rather confers on it a higher human value. It demands continual effort yet, thanks to its beneficent influence, husband and wife fully develop their personalities, being enriched with spiritual values. Such discipline bestows upon family life fruits of serenity and peace; and facilitates the solution of other problems; it favors attention for one''s partner, helps both parties to drive out selfishness, the enemy of true love, and deepens their sense of responsibility.

[mensarino]

cmoreau~you definitely have too much time on your hands

[cmoreau2]

Third prediction made in Humanae Vitae 40 years ago:
Abuse of Power

Paul VI also observed that the widespread acceptance of contraception would place a "dangerous weapon... in the hands of those public authorities who take no heed of moral exigencies." The history of the family-planning programs in the Third World is a sobering testimony to this reality. In Third World countries many people undergo sterilization unaware of what they are doing. The forced abortion program in China shows the stark extreme toward which governments will take population programs. Moreover, few people are willing to recognize the growing evidence that many parts of the world face not overpopulation, but underpopulation. It will take years to reverse the "anti-child" mentality now entrenched in many societies.

[cmoreau2]

Second prediction from Humanae Vitae made 40 years ago:
Lost Respect for Women

Paul VI also argued that "the man" will lose respect for "the woman" and "no longer (care) for her physical and psychological equilibrium" and will come to "the point of considering her as a mere instrument of selfish enjoyment and no longer as his respected and beloved companion." This concern reflects what has come to be known as a "personalist" understanding of morality. The personalist understanding of wrongdoing is based upon respect for the dignity of the human person. The Pope realized that the Church''s teaching on contraception is designed to protect the good of conjugal love. When spouses violate this good, they do not act in accord with their innate dignity and thus they endanger their own happiness. Treating their bodies as mechanical instruments to be manipulated for their own purposes, they risk treating each other as objects of pleasure.

[cmoreau2]

Second prediction from Humanae Vitae made 40 years ago:
Lost Respect for Women

Paul VI also argued that "the man" will lose respect for "the woman" and "no longer (care) for her physical and psychological equilibrium" and will come to "the point of considering her as a mere instrument of selfish enjoyment and no longer as his respected and beloved companion." This concern reflects what has come to be known as a "personalist" understanding of morality. The personalist understanding of wrongdoing is based upon respect for the dignity of the human person. The Pope realized that the Church''s teaching on contraception is designed to protect the good of conjugal love. When spouses violate this good, they do not act in accord with their innate dignity and thus they endanger their own happiness. Treating their bodies as mechanical instruments to be manipulated for their own purposes, they risk treating each other as objects of pleasure.

[cmoreau2]

Infidelity and moral decline

The Pope first noted that the widespread use of contraception would "lead to conjugal infidelity and the general lowering of morality." That there has been a widespread decline in morality, especially sexual morality, in the last 25 years, is very difficult to deny. The increase in the number of divorces, abortion, our-of-wedlock pregnancies, and venereal diseases should convince any skeptic that sexual morality is not the strong suit of our age.

There is no question that contraception is behind much of this trouble. Contraception has made sexual activity a much more popular option that it was when the fear of pregnancy deterred a great number of young men and women from engaging in premarital sexual intercourse. The availability of contraception has led them to believe that they can engage in premarital sexual activity "responsibly." But teenagers are about as responsible in their use of contraception as they are in all other phases of their lives--such as making their beds, cleaning their rooms and getting their homework done on time.

[cmoreau2]

Humanae Vitae 40 years ago "prophesied" that marriages and society would suffer if the use of contraception became widespread. Now the vast majority of spouses, as well as those who are unmarried, use some form of contraception.
Statistics show that few Catholics live by these teachings, and it seems safe to suppose that few Catholics have read Humanae Vitae.
Christians understand marriage as an elevated calling, whereby God enlists spouses in the all-important enterprise of bringing forth new human life. The Church teaches that to use contraception is to reject God and his life-giving blessings. The Church teaches not merely that contraception is wrong, but that because contraception is wrong, it will have bad consequences.

[tmittelstaed]

This debate on contraception is a tempest in a teapot. You want to have *** without contraception and without worrying about pregnancy? No problem - just jack off about an hour beforehand. *** levels recover in a man''s body in about an hour, but sperm levels take several DAYS. Why do you think they won''t take a *** sample (to test for effectiveness of a vasectomy for example) unless you have abstained from *** AND ************ for at least 4 DAYS previously?
The reality of the Catholic church is that they want to keep people IGNORANT of how their own bodies work. They don''t want research in contraceptives, or *** ed, because they want to use the threat of pregnancy to keep the flock in line. They know that people sexually frustrated will divert energy into other things - like for example, church work.
And of course, the Vatican loves to think of itself as the One True Christian denomination. Other denominations, like the Protestants, the Methodists, all without this no-contraception ban, why those just don''t count, do they?

[cbsfan73]

tuckerndfw defines agnostic:
Agnostic literally means ignorant but it is a nonsensical word invented by a cowardly atheist who was too cowardly to admit he did not believe in gods.

Merriam Webster:
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2: a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something political agnostics

[cbsfan73]

To tuckerndfw:

To admit one does not know is the beginning of knowledge. To admit one is wrong is the beginning of wisdom.

Ancient Chinese proverb

[cbsfan73]

omded commented:
"You rely on alledged "facts" presented by an institution with a long, well documentd history of corruption and evil deeds (the Roman Catholic Church)".

Goodnight all. I am going to watch:
"The Name of the Rose"

[omded]

cmoreau2,
Regarding James, there''s a lot to say. For starters, James is believed by many to be Jesus'' brother. After the death of Jesus, there was a deep division in the Christian community. There were the followers of James and the rest of Jesus''s family, and there were followers of Paul, and, to a lesser extent, Peter. It is interesting to note the Catholic emphasis on Jesus being concieved by the Holy Spirit, and that Mary, Jesus'' Mother, had no other children. There is a very legitamate argument that this was invented in an effort to discredit James, and his teachings, which were not favored by the Romans who, at the time maintained political dominance, and were very influencial in the formation of the Catholic Church (aka "The Holy Roman Catholic Church"). I''m assuming you side with Paul, however, keep in mind that, you can no better prove your correctness and my incorrectness than I can prove my correctness and your incorrectness. You rely on alledged "facts" presented by an institution with a long, well documentd history of corruption and evil deeds (the Roman Catholic Church). I suppose I''m running short on letters, so I bid you goodnight.

[cbsfan73]

tuckerndfw proclaimed:
I suppose that''''s one small reason I became an atheist. If "God" is so weak he is relegated to begging for money, who needs him (it?)?

It''s better to be agnostic than an atheist - your mind is still open to all possibilities. An atheist, like a racist, is truly a closed minded person.

[cmoreau2]

omded,

Thankyou for your civility as well. Good night for me to.

[cmoreau2]

Pope Paul VI Humanae Vitea Prediction 1
Infidelity and moral decline

The Pope first noted that the widespread use of contraception would "lead to conjugal infidelity and the general lowering of morality." That there has been a widespread decline in morality, especially sexual morality, in the last 25 years, is very difficult to deny. The increase in the number of divorces, abortion, our-of-wedlock pregnancies, and venereal diseases should convince any skeptic that sexual morality is not the strong suit of our age.

There is no question that contraception is behind much of this trouble. Contraception has made sexual activity a much more popular option that it was when the fear of pregnancy deterred a great number of young men and women from engaging in premarital sexual intercourse. The availability of contraception has led them to believe that they can engage in premarital sexual activity "responsibly." But teenagers are about as responsible in their use of contraception as they are in all other phases of their lives--such as making their beds, cleaning their rooms and getting their homework done on time.

[omded]

cmoreau2,
I congratulate and thank you for your civility. However, I advise against turning to Wikipedia as a source for religious matters. Postings in Wikipedia can be made by anyone, and are often the subject of considerable debate. A medical journal would be a much more reliable reference.

Regarding James, 1500 letters isn''t much to work with. However, keep in mind that there are numerous different gospels, and, only 4 have been placed before us as "authentic". In order to determine how accurate the gospels, or any other alleged "holy scripture" are, one must refer both to history itself, an examination of the world which surrounds us, and an examination of the depths of our own souls. I sincerely hope your theological beliefs aren''t based soley on what was taught to you by the Catholic Church. Such would be unwise, as the church, while not all bad, does have a long history of deception, lies, and dogged support of alledged "facts" that later proved completely false. It also has a well documented history of serving itself. Perhaps I''ll post a little more in a new post (1500 more precious letters!) before it becomes this Bonzo''s bedtime.

[cmoreau2]

prophesy 3 from Humanae Vitae 40 years ago
Abuse of Power

Paul VI also observed that the widespread acceptance of contraception would place a "dangerous weapon... in the hands of those public authorities who take no heed of moral exigencies." The history of the family-planning programs in the Third World is a sobering testimony to this reality. In Third World countries many people undergo sterilization unaware of what they are doing. The forced abortion program in China shows the stark extreme toward which governments will take population programs. Moreover, few people are willing to recognize the growing evidence that many parts of the world face not overpopulation, but underpopulation. It will take years to reverse the "anti-child" mentality now entrenched in many societies.

[randynason]

The church, wealthiest of the institutions, instructs the people to turn away from material things. The church also instructs people to not practice birth control, although many of its'' members are sexual predators. Maybe the church should join the twenty-first century, embrace practical measures and practice what it preaches.

[deacon20081]

Interesting how self-proclaimed "evangelical Christians" are so ignorant of the Catholic Church.
I guarantee that a large number of practicing Catholics disagree with the church on a number of issues. Big deal all families argue.