Comments on: AP Poll: To Fix Economy, Get Out Of Iraq

Most Believe U.S. Is In Recession, And Quitting Iraq Would Be More Helpful Than Rebate Checks

[inventagod]

Too bad Congress doesn''t listen to citizens...

[iceman_1960]

There''s a lot of bad history between Japan and China, and the Japanese aren"t helping matters much by being dishonest about it.

During the Korean War, American POWs were being badly mistreated in North Korean POW camps and were suffering a huge death rate. Their Chinese allies became concerned about this, and took the Americans prisoners away from the North Koreans. Conditions immediately improved for the Americans, since the Chinese camps maintained a disciplined atmosphere in which brutality was not used; instead they had endless "re-education" classes that the Americans had to sit through.

Americans who accepted Chinese offers to defect to their society generally didn"t suffer discrimination, but often became disenchanted with the sameness and the lack of opportunities to excel.

[b-easy63]

This is anecdotal evidence, of course, but I had the opportunity to work with a group of Chinese who had immigrated to America -- most were citizens by then -- and I was struck by their diversity of opinion and their lively debates among themselves on various issues.

This wasn"t as true of the Indians or Muslims.

Confucianism is fairly non-dogmatic, as such philosophies go.

Posted by Iceman_1960 at 11:37 PM : Feb 10, 2008


The Chinese, like most non white minorities in a new country--only show Americans what they want Americans to see. They know they are here and can prosper only by modulating their opinion (especially in these times) I am fortunate enough to be of such mixed heritage (polynesian, european, madagascan, etc) that people have no idea what I am. I am often confided in and most races do NOT share what they really think of AMerica or Americans with us. Also, most blacks also do not share (nor do most Hispanics) This is because we are not usually open to truly censuring or differing opinions (our std response being "go back to where you came from) given that and potential repercussions...no matter how friendly you are--if you are not in their eyes--"one of them" it is highly unlikely they reveal anything to you.

[b-easy63]

When the head of China''s defense called us barbaric and deplored our actions in Iraq, he also cut his eyes at Bush--the biggest failing of Americans (and that means most Americans) is that they make the mistake of seeing the reaction of other countries through their own perspective and therefore--often give the wrong interpretation to events. This continually happens in the ME and it is happening with China. The Chinese and Japanese loathe each other. They also do a booming business together. those are 2 separate things--but one feeling and need ultimately for payback does not supplant the present pragmatism of getting their business.

[b-easy63]

Iceman_1960
I am actually referring to the mindset of the Chinese government when speaking about the proclivity for war or wanting us nullified. When I speak about the focus of the society, I speak from 2 angles:

From the time of my being 4 to 7, I lived in Taiwan and my nannies were either Chinese or Japanese. Very important to those of Asian descent is tradition. It is much more important than "things" or making money just to get more things. Family and connections, ties to community and family (and ancestors) looms very large.

From an academic point of view, this is also borne out--the Chinese place more value in honor and family than in seeing how much money they can make. I also base this on the few times I have noted the Chinese government speaking to and addressing Bush or American actions and noted the contempt barely disguised on what usually is an inscrutable contenance, that the chairman would even let a hint of his distaste of us be seen speaks volumes--to show emotion is usually a sign of losing face--but if something is really far beneath you--then there is no danger of losing face, because they can be considered less than human and therefore the one showing emotion is not accountable to them. see next post

[iceman_1960]

One of the funniest characters on Youtube is a Chinese American teenager who affects a humorous "gangsta rap" persona.

He really has those mannerisms down.

[iceman_1960]

This is anecdotal evidence, of course, but I had the opportunity to work with a group of Chinese who had immigrated to America -- most were citizens by then -- and I was struck by their diversity of opinion and their lively debates among themselves on various issues.

This wasn"t as true of the Indians or Muslims.

Confucianism is fairly non-dogmatic, as such philosophies go.

[iceman_1960]

"Maybe they"re authentic, maybe not. Anyone judging their authenticity would also know those facets of the war(and therefore could have faked them for our public"s consumption)."
- Posted by b-easy63 at 11:29 PM : Feb 10, 2008

And not necessarily by the American forces.

I imagine the al Maliki government has a few (hopefully more than a few) spies in that organization who might be feeding the Americans documents to keep us there as long as possible.

Maybe they"re authentic -- if so, that"s good news.

But as Ronald Reagan said, trust but verify -- in other words, don"t trust.

[iceman_1960]

RE: Post by b-easy63 at 11:20 PM : Feb 10, 2008

Which Chinese are you referring to ?

There are 1.3 billion of them.

There must be all kinds of different opinions among them, on every topic under the sun.

[b-easy63]

adding to your observation:


Maybe they"re authentic, maybe not. Anyone judging their authenticity would also know those facets of the war(and therefore could have faked them for our public''s consumption).

Posted by Iceman_1960 at 11:26 PM : Feb 10, 2008

[iceman_1960]

"Didn"t the Army just capture some al Qaeda documents in Iraq that said "We"re losing ! They"re beating us !!"

From another report:

"...the documents are believed to be authentic, Smith said, because they contain details that only al Qaeda in Iraq leaders could know about battlefield movements and tactics."

Not quite convincing there, Lieutenant Columbo.

Maybe they"re authentic, maybe not. Anyone judging their authenticity would also know those facets of the war.

[b-easy63]

Iceman_1960
The Chinese are pragmatists and they have seen it all. If they ever deduce that America not being a competitor or an eternal debt load is a good idea (ie., eliminating the only threat to the world economy and military stability) and they see no further benefit to cajoling us, they might go to war. LIke I said, there is no love lost with China and us and they see us as greedy and without common sense.

As for business--understand what is important to the Chinese is NOT business, it is family, continuity, tradition and ancestors--social connections (community, mores, etc) that being the case, do not make the mistake in thinking that our particular god (money) also rules the Chinese. It is far more complex than that--also, do not make the mistake if thinking as we contaminate them more with money and greed--they will get to be more like us.

What actually happens is that SOME of our ideas about gain are assimilated into their own genre--they do not so much emulate or adopt our practices as they integrate them. Neither the Chinese or the Moslems have any desire to be us or even be like us--they want the influence and power that we have, but by and large , due to our practices, both groups despise us. Their goal is to take what we can to beat us at our own game and to bide the time until we are such weak or unstable players that we can be neutralized, either economically, or if it comes to it and there is a perceived advantage--militarily.

[iceman_1960]

Didn"t the Army just capture some al Qaeda documents in Iraq that said "We"re losing ! They"re beating us !!"

Coming from the "Gulf of Tonkin" generation, I take that kind of thing with a little skepticism.

[iceman_1960]

"good night, all. Buy silver coins with your entertainment funds. They hold their face value and its cheaper than gold."
- Posted by mcv57 at 11:10 PM : Feb 10, 2008

Whatever you do,

DIVERSIFY.

[donbl1]

b-easy, on fabs. Most of the stuff done overseas is on the old technology and not even 90 nanometer. Good place to build DRAM for example or Flash RAM as that stuff is getting pretty long in the tooth.

Most companies (and DOD) do not allow their ASICS or other custom devices critical to their technology advantage to be built in China. They would just steal them.

Average starting salary for new BSEE grad in Texas is $52K and they mostly have jobs. Jobs for IT folks are starting to get in very high demand here. Good friend posted IT for three days and had 3 offers. Took one for low six figures.

Opinions on this forum are definitely affected by our regions. My region is still good.

[b-easy63]

China also has some well publicized quality problems which have cost money to fix. In some industries, these can not be tolerated.

Posted by donbl1 at 10:55 PM : Feb 10, 2008


Puhleese--they shoot the errant CEO and keep sending us cr@p --what are we going to do about it? They are the only ones who give us a cut rate on the prices due to the fact they own our azzes. Like I said, just like the sharecroppers at the company store--eating the beans or other food with worms in the meal--when it is pretty much the only place you can bulk shop cuz you can get cheap credit there--we just better learn to deal with it. (japan got bad dumplings sprayed with pesticides earlier in last week).

China can''t understand our beef. They have TOO many people, so they don''t care when a few die--they simply can''t relate to the knee jerk reaction of us to a few of us dying of lead, mercury or aquadot date rape drug poisoning...As for our dogs and cats with kidney failure due to melamine poisoning--well--they EAT dogs and cats--so they say, "discard the kidneys and liver, before processing all of that good meat.

[mcv57]

good night, all. Buy silver coins with your entertainment funds. They hold their face value and its cheaper than gold.

[iceman_1960]

"Ubrew, I am not impressed with Chinese nor Indian engineers."
- Posted by donbl1 at 11:03 PM : Feb 10, 2008

The Chinese do very well for a nation of over a billion people, over half of the population of which lives on less than a dollar a day.

Their coal mining and snow removal industries do leave something to be desired.

But historically their record of technological innovation isn"t half bad.

("The archaeological site of Xihoudu in Shanxi Province is the earliest recorded of use of fire by **** erectus, which is dated 1.27 million years ago.")

[ubrew12]

donbl1 said: "Japanese costs eventually reached parity with US costs or even exceeded them. " Well, I didn''t want to lead a ''China'' scare. I''m generally for globalization, just think we''ve gone too far, too fast (remember, its never fast enough for the CEO''s, just for the little guys in the mailroom).

Japan got snookered by savvy US business real-estate interests and it cost her billions. Yet Japan is in a way illustrative of the dangers facing America today. That nation of savers found that her savings could be ''tapped'' by unscrupulous Yakuza, who bought extravagant properties in the U.S. and elsewhere at a loss that EVERYONE then had to repay (its taken 15 years). America is an economy given over to her wealthy. I see no reason to believe they have done any better with that money than the Yakuza did. So, we have a $10 trillion debt and what by way of ownership? When money comes easy, why invest it carefully? No easier money than tax cuts on the wealthy.

[mcv57]

God keep you. doubt