Comments on: Mine Crews Struggle To Drill Relief Holes

Rescue of Six Men Trapped In Utah Mine Is Still Days Away

[nolalou]

Politicus,

The dispute is not rather or not there was an earthquake , the debate is rather is was an earthquake that caused the mine to collapse, or the mine collapse itself that caused it.

While the mine operator insists an earthquake caused the accident, seismic officials disagree. I quote "Seismologists now definitively say the collapse of the Crandall Canyon mine caused a seismic event, and no earthquake occurred, despite owner Robert Murray's insistence Tuesday that a quake caused the mine collapse that trapped six miners."

The point is you don't know any more than anyone else the exact cause of the collapse!

[pepperp1]

In June, U.S. regulators approved a roof control plan for the "room and pillar" technique, also known as retreat mining, at Crandall Canyon.

[nothappyatall]

"...help the miners, the families and the rescurers in their attempt to overcome this tragedy.
Posted by jetlizhan"

god doesnt bless people, the lord doesnt help people, and prayers dont work chief.

www.atheists.org
www.evilbible.com

[jetlizhan]

snidegrass -
hittin' that ole crack pipe mighty early this morning, eh?

[tnt1954]

life's a broken record, then the needle breaks.-
elizabeth botellier, dead at age 22, murdered
in las vegas. by persons unknown. case never
solved. like stinks then ya die, punk rocker
saying. started in tenement districts
of northern ireland and bernadette devlin. oh, but ye better be orange. colours of kgb are
orange, orange and orange. pessimism.

[jetlizhan]

can you even imagine having to wait 48-72 hrs more just to find out if your loved one is even alive?? God bless these families - they are living each hour in pure hell. Lord help the miners, the families and the rescurers in their attempt to overcome this tragedy.

[michellem99-2009]

She failed to add yes you paid for the power. I feel for the gents. I did not like her smart asre answer. I feel they are not doing all they can to get them out. We can get men and their gear to a war faster than they care to get them gents out. Been in an earthqauke and them shakers can do this. normons wake up and yer men out of that mine.

[missingamerica]

I can't resist:

Don't you think it is wonderful how seismic activity won't stop mining but will stop rescue attempts?

Says something about priorities, at a minimum.

[politicus]

Well ibsteve2u friend,

(I would have to correct my km to miles conversion which is actually 1 km = 0.62 miles)

The article states the mine's saftey record is "slightly better than the industry average."

As far as locating a mine near seismic activity, not all seismic activity can be foretold and is not known until it occurs. The area was considered stable and is noted elsewhere that UT never has had a mining accident caused by an earthquake - but that doesn't preclude one could occur or did occur in this case..

The premise that the 3.9 quake was natural or caused by the mine collapse is still up in the air. Aftershocks indicate it may have been due to the collapse.

My point is that these earlier quakes could have caused the mine to collapse - they were directly below it - I also admit I don't know the depth of the mine - but the earlier deeper quakes were never considered by CBS and the media - who apparently assumed the ground was stable before the 3.9 event on Monday - thus due to their lack of investigative news reporting, presumed Murray was lying and smeared him - associating him with the GOP, specifically quoting to him referring to the "Lord" (as if family members of the missing miners aren't praying) - as if he were some religious freak.

It's a joke by the Liberal media. Smear a coal mine owner when facts which could vindicate him are available at the UofU site.

[missingamerica]

Beg pardon; rephrase that to "not having the required emergency escape routes".

That might mean less than half, one too few, or none at all...

[missingamerica]

I guess we'll just have to wait and see which arrangement of the available data and facts is deemed to most closely represent the truth, Politicus.

I would note, however, that if your arrangement wins out the question of the wisdom, or negligence, of mining in an area with such a large amount of seismic activity enters the equation.

As does what additional precautions were being taken to forestall the risk associated with seismic activity?

And in particular the question of why the mine was cited last month for having less than half the escape routes mandated by law becomes of great significance when you are operating in a zone of known seismic activity.

[politicus]

Then why would the three earlier events be at 5 - 6 km below the larger 3.9 magnitude event which was at 1.5 km? The Friday event was at 6 km, the Sunday events at 6.2 and 7 km respectively.

Do you really believe the mine had pillars 5-6 km high if the mine were 7 km deep?

That's almost 6 miles, friend!

If you look at the UofU site, natural quakes are occuring in UT, ID, NV at depths down to 8.0, (6.3 km at Yellowstone with its quivering), yet somehow quakes at 6.2 and 7.0 can't cause a mine to collapse at 1.6 km above them?

[searingtruth]

"Death. I saw only death. And a promise from evil that death would soon subside."
SearingTruth

A Future of the Brave - www.searingtruth.com

[missingamerica]

Perhaps you misunderstood, Politicus.

I was suggesting that those "THREE SEISMIC EVENTS which occured BEFORE the 3.9 quake on Monday - the day of the mine collapse" may also show a predominately downward motion instead of the sinusoidal waveform of a true earthquake.

In other words, those three events your argument of innocence hinges on may instead be a smoking gun pointing at retreat mining - which is the removal of as much coal as possible from the remaining supporting pillars until the roof falls in.

See http://www.umwa.org/mining/ugmine.shtml

[politicus]

HEY ibsteve2u!

I am referring to THREE SEISMIC EVENTS which occured BEFORE the 3.9 quake on Monday - the day of the mine collapse.

One of three happened on FRIDAY and two on SUNDAY before the 3.9 quake on MONDAY - when the mine collapsed.

You're referring to AFTERSHOCKS!
So you're the one using half-truths.

What's wrong? Can't read a website?

http://www.seis.utah.edu/recenteqs/Quakes/quakes0.html

The website records those aftershocks to which you refer on MONDAY after the 3.9 quake.
Sheesh....

[missingamerica]

Consider, Politicus:

What would the seismic signature be if they were indeed doing retreat mining?

Would not the University of Utah's seismographs show the "planned" collapses as the remaining support pillers were mined out?

I would expect that those same seismographs could give a pretty decent record of most major activity that has ever occurred at Murray's mine...

[politicus]

TO CONTINUE:
There were two earlier earthquakes: AT THE EXACT SAME LOCATION as the two I noted below.

Sunday
map 1.6 2007/08/05 05:39:33 39.464N 111.228W 7.0 21 km (13 mi) ESE of Mount Pleasant, UT

And on Friday
map 1.5 2007/08/03 04:39:17 39.461N 111.232W 6.2 21 km (13 mi) ESE of Mount Pleasant, UT

I'll ask the questions.

Were these earlier seismic events caused by mining operation demolitions - or natural quakes possibly causing the mine to collapse at the higher 1.6 km depth? Does the mine continue a further 5 km below?

Why hasn't this seismic info readily available on the internet been reported and questioned before CBS decided to smear Murray?

[missingamerica]

That took 10 minutes, Politicus; longer than I expected. From the Associated Press:

"Scientists believe the seismic waves in the area of the Crandall Canyon mine were "the signature of the collapse and that the collapse was not caused by an earthquake," said James W. Dewey, a seismologist at the National Earthquake Information Center in Golden, Colo.

Scientists have not ruled out a natural earthquake since the region surrounding the mine is seismically active, and they do not know the exact time the mine collapsed.

But, Dewey said, "the data we have seen seem more consistent with the collapse being the cause of the 'earthquake' rather than the other way around."

On Monday, University of Utah seismographs recorded seismic waves of 3.9 magnitude near the mine. At least 10 aftershocks were felt more than 24 hours after the collapse, with the strongest registering 2.2 magnitude.

Scientists say quakes caused by mine collapses tend to occur at shallower depths and at different frequencies than natural earthquakes.

The first motions of the Utah disturbance indicated a downward movement consistent with a collapse, scientists said. If it was a natural quake, it would have produced up and down motions on the seismograms. The quake occurred anywhere from 2,000 to 8,500 feet underground."

In other words, Politicus, you tell a half truth to cover up the whole truth.

[searingtruth]

My heart aches for the suffering and innocent of all tragedy, most especially the children.

Their is no "mine safety" at all in America today, and there was very little before the Bush administration stripped that "little" away.

But today we must hope for the innocent, and give all to their rescue.

Tomorrow we shall pursue justice.
ST


"The depth of human compassion may be measured by how often they forgive their gods."
SearingTruth

"Children should not know fear, or death, or suffering, for it is not their lot to know. Theirs is a time for joy, and wonder, and a time of great discovery. Let them never despair, or hurt, or want. This should be our highest calling, and our most sincere dedication."
SearingTruth

A Future of the Brave - www.searingtruth.com

[politicus]

Murray is correct that an earthquake was the cause.

The UofU's list of earthquakes: http://www.seis.utah.edu/recenteqs/Quakes/quakes0.html

shows a quake occurred the day before on Sunday Aug 5 at a 19:44:48 time with a magnitude of 1.8 at a 6.6 km depth at the EXACT LOCATION but 5.0 km deeper than and 7 hours BEFORE the Monday Aug 6, 3.9 magnitude quake at 1.6 km attributed to the mine collapse.

If the govt authorities believe the 3.9 quake was the mine collapsing and Murray a big liar, then why haven't they and the Liberal CBS reporters who don't have the brains to discover this UofU site even considered the earlier smaller quake below the mine to have possibly caused the mine above to collapse?

Maybe it's because they're quick to judge and portray Murray as a liar and thus an evil Corporate exploiter of natural resources and a major polluter of global warming carbon emissions. Quick, call 1-800-AL-GORE!

Note how this CBS article points out Murray's association with the GOP - as if it has anything to do with the mine collapsing. CBS is nothing but a smear artist.

The two events here: http://www.seis.utah.edu/recenteqs/Quakes/quakes0.html

MAP 3.9 2007/08/06 02:48:40 39.465N 111.237W 1.6 21 km (13 mi) ESE of Mount Pleasant, UT
map 1.8 2007/08/05 19:44:48 39.462N 111.238W 6.6 21 km (13 mi) ESE of Mount Pleasant, UT