Comments on: Death Penalty Deters Murders, Studies Say

Hotly Debated Academic Analyses Claim Up To 18 Lives Saved Per Execution

[pakaal]

The death penalty saves lives? Tell that to the 350 innocent Americans who have been put to death for someone else's crime.

This new study (which itself controversially claims something many previous studies disprove - effective deterrence) simply doesn't address one essential problem with capital punishment - that it cannot be undone if new evidence comes out that exonerates the accused.

[samthetvcat]

PPS Child molesters who kill ought to get DP - if any one deserves DP it's them . . . maybe that's a little contradictory given that I just said that their compulsions are so strong they may not be able to stop themselves and that the system let them down by not having stiffer punishments, but the crime is so heinous I guess I justify it as 'justice'.

[samthetvcat]

PS As for addressing the *** crimes, (I just wrote about this in the other thread about the age of child molestors getting younger and they don't know whether it's because the laws are getting tougher and more kids are reporting it or whether *** and violence from the internet is contribution), I think the system has to get better at treating at-risk kids here too and that the punishment for child molestation ought to be life without possibility of parole. None of this 'statutory rape' between consensual teens. Ridiculous.

But anyway, in the other thread my point was that the murderer of Kelsey Smith was adopted at 7 into a loving home and the parents said by then he was already unreachable. I think as a society we don't really have a good idea on how to deal with kids who have been abused so that they don't repeat the cycle. For starters, what exactly happened to him before he was adopted? Is his abuser still at large abusing kids?

[samthetvcat]

jmmnycrckt:

[Studies about "Does X deter Y" are an utter farce]

I guess we'll have to wait and see the details of the study because it's hard either way to control the study of a complex issue to measure the impact of just one factor.

[If punishment were a deterent to crime then there would be no crime. The majority of all crime is committed out of a preceived necessity to comit the crime.]

I think human beings weigh the cost/benefits to see whether they're better off, and not all crimes are the same. A child predator might have an overwhelming compulsion and so much self-hatred that they're not going to care either way. A potential gay basher that is be wracked with hate might instead decide to just walk away.

Deterrence is just one justification for the DP, justice is another - this is just a personal preference. Also even assuming DP does deter, I agree it shouldn't be the only tool that's relied upon to combat crime...the best deterrent around is still for people to give a hoot about at-risk kids and to provide them with the tools they need to actually have a fighting chance in life. It makes he sick to see Bush so irresponsible with the social programs that a morally responsible society ought to have if they are going to allow the DP as the ultimate punishment.

[susanhelit]

Three problems with LWOP that must be considered.

First - escape. It does happen. Dead men cannot escape.

Second - harming other prisoners. This also does happen. A dead man cannot harm others in jail.

Third - and most likely and serious IMHO - harming the guards. This happens all the time. If we want to lock someone up, we have to recognize the sacrifice we expect to make - the safety and sometimes the lives of the prison guards.

[susanhelit]

As usual, the extremes are wrong. Penalties do have a deterrent effect - duh! Penalties do not deter every single criminal - duh!

No level of penalty will deter everyone - there's always an idiot or so who thinks he will never be caught. But for those of us not idiots, not so arrogant that we think we'll never be caught - it's a good deterrent.

Is death necessary - that's what we need studies to determine. From this article, sounds like several different studies, not run by pro-DP types, say it is a deterrent. That's important to know. Possibly more sure punishment would be even better - although to have more sure punishment means, inevitably, some innocents will be convicted.

Still, seems a no-brainer that in the cases where there is no real doubt - confessions plus physical evidence or videotape - we should speed up the justice system a ton.

[dogsoul]

"...so really the DUI laws do not have much to do with reduction in crime, but public awareness does..."

Look, if you're suggesting that the entire system, concept and practice of crime & punishment has no influence on human behavior w/in a given society - what can I say, you're wrong... so much so that I'm really not going to debate you further. While public awareness certainly has had a positive impact on the reduction of DUI related deaths... it pales in comparison to the direct impact of tougher laws against drinking & driving... period.

[fossil551]

I think about the rights of the victims first. Their rights were taken away and most often taken away quite brutally. I do hope that the monsters that rape little children or the monsters that take lives away so callously are sentenced to death immediately. These creeps have no regard for life. Death is the end%u2026do they not know that? Of course they do. Our lenient justice system lead by the ACLU is obsessed with protecting the %u201Crights%u201D of these monsters. DNA is a brilliant tool in identifying these criminals. I am all for capitol punishment.

[fossil551]

I think about the rights of the victims first. Their rights were taken away and most often taken away quite brutally. I do hope that the monsters that rape little children or the monsters that take lives away so callously are sentenced to death immediately. These creeps have no regard for life. Death is the end%u2026do they not know that? Of course they do. Our lenient justice system lead by the ACLU is obsessed with protecting the %u201Crights%u201D of these monsters. DNA is a brilliant tool in identifying these criminals. I am all for capitol punishment.

[dogsoul]

"You emphasize my point--the logic in the study is flawed and the conclusions suspect."

Well, while we're not given here enough information about how soundly or unsoundly their study was performed, I do know that YOUR logic jumped right off the page as flawed - and I'm going out on a limb here to suggest they dove a little deeper in developing THEIR methodology. But to your point, the logic of ANY study should be scrutinized and ALL conclusions be held suspect - especially those that contradict the widely repeatable observation that increased consequences generally correlate to greater deterrent... that's simply a part of the scientific method. I'm not personally convinced either way just yet - but I AM interested in exploring these questions thru rigorous study... which is really the problem for most ANYthing these days, you can get a study to say whatever you want - and exactly whose viewpoint gets any press is filtered thru biased outlets, disseminated by agendas & often corrupted by political correctness... Let's face it, many controversial issues don't get anywhere NEAR equal air time - whatever the issue, we're often told it's been settled while anyone offering an opposing viewpoint gets ostracized or otherwise silenced for reasons and by means that have absolutely no merit in the arena of scientific advancement.

[gunownerdan]

Nothing works better at deterring criminals than a good old 12 guage shotgun(or other type of firearm).
The 2nd Amendment: REAL Homeland Security!

a-human-right.com

[intheknow2]

Dogsoul....what also comes with the enactment of any new law? I can not tell you how many "LifeTime Afterschool Specials" about not drinking and driving that I had to watch in High School, so really the DUI laws do not have much to do with reduction in crime, but public awareness does.

[andor3]

dogsoul writes:
"That's called implied causation & is INDEED a leap of logic - could it not also mean that societies that have higher rates of violent crime are more LIKELY to embrace the death penalty?"

You emphasize my point--the logic in the study is flawed and the conclusions suspect.

[andor3]

Mary-61 writes:
"Cruel and unusual? The crimes that those on death row often commit go far beyond cruel and unusual. [...] They lost their rights when the decided to act as an animal."

You may be unfamiliar with the values and laws of the USA, they differ from other countries. Their constitution forbids cruel and unusual punishment and gives certain rights to people, regardless of their being criminals. Of course certain human rights are universal also. US courts have ruled on the methods of capital punishment being cruel and unusual (not the punishment itself, which is still debated). Not sure what country you live in, but you wouldn't last long in the USA or any civilised country!

[lars008-2009]

Lars-
Its hard to kill someone when your in jail for life to.

And who the hell gets 5 years in an 'enlightened dutch prison' for murder?
Posted by StapleSauce at 12:54 PM : Jun 11, 2007

who doesn't??? and who actually serves life???
they all get out on parole, especially with overcrowding...

you cannot find it do to the liberal internet censors....

and you thought the internet had freedom of speech.... just like in china... google kowtows to islam and liberals......

Googled

Google has been accused of censoring writers critical Islamic fascism such as Arlene Peck, and those critical of Liberals in general. Google refers to them as promoting "hate."
http://www.sullivan-county.com/id4/peck2b.htm

[dogsoul]

"If punishment were a deterent to crime then there would be no crime. Thus, since there is crime, punishment is not a deterent."

That is the most ridiculous reasoning I've seen in a long time... if we had no punishment associated w/ crime, there would be infinitely more crime than we experience today. Just look at DUI laws, since they've been enacted - DUI fatalities have fallen thru the floor despite many more drivers on the road. I don't mind a good debate either way, but come ON man... let's look alive out there...

[dogsoul]

"It's pretty much accepted by everyone who knows about this stuff that the death penalty is not a deterrent"

No... it's pretty much accepted by everyone who does not believe in the death penalty that it is not a deterrent - and it's the stance that gets the most air time.

"That's the only reason this shaky study by some economics (!) prof gets any news--because it goes against the accepted common sense."

Common & readily observable sense dictates that the tougher the consequences, the greater the deterrent - anti death penalty advocates have gotten THEIR press largely because it contradicts this argument, SO much so in fact that people like you now claim YOUR stance follows common sense guidlines.

"But what we do also know is that societies that embrace the death penalty have higher rates of violent crime"

That's called implied causation & is INDEED a leap of logic - could it not also mean that societies that have higher rates of violent crime are more LIKELY to embrace the death penalty?

[intheknow2]

Studies about "Does X deter Y" are an utter farce and complete waste of time.

If punishment were a deterent to crime then there would be no crime. Thus, since there is crime, punishment is not a deterent.

The majority of all crime is committed out of a preceived necessity to comit the crime.

Also, no on here can say "The death penalty deters me from committing murder" You can not say because you have not been placed in the situation where killing someone seems a viable option.

Who wasted the money on this study? And yes, I too would be interested in actually reading the report and see how they measured everything. Also, from "who" did they ask, "Does the death penalty deter you".

Even if a criminal, who only several harmed a person, but did not kill them because of recieving the Death Penalty, the criminal still committed a crime, so really what was dettered?

[staplesauce]

Surprisingly, there's no link in the article to allow me to view the actual study. Pretty tough to come up with your 'own conclusions' if you can't even see the primary source.

Any one hear about this from somewhere else and know where I can view it?

Lars-
Its hard to kill someone when your in jail for life to.

And who the hell gets 5 years in an 'enlightened dutch prison' for murder?

[staplesauce]

Surprisingly, there's no link in the article to allow me to view the actual study. Pretty tough to come up with your 'own conclusions' if you can't even see the primary source.

Any one hear about this from somewhere else and know where I can view it?

Lars-
Its hard to kill someone when your in jail for life to.

And who the hell gets 5 years in an 'enlightened dutch prison' for murder?