Comments on: Rightward Ho!

Legal Analyst Andrew Cohen: Court's Conservative Turn Is A Matter Of Math — And Art

[jimmyc1955]

There is no such thing as situationally correct discrimination. It was wrong under Jim Crow - it's wrong now. Not everbody starts from an even playing field, but thats OK. I personally know a large number of rich white kids who didn't do very well, though they had every advantage.

And I know, and have worked with, a number of African Americans who started in bad situations and achieved wonderfully - in harder situations than todays generation face.

Let them compete, let them learn to push themselves. 20 years ago basketball was almost an all black sport - now its getting integrated. They didn't put weights on black players, the white players just learned to get better. Why should education be any different?

[jimmyc1955]

huskerarmy

Before Jim Crow was erradicated - what your saying was absolutely true - a proven, unarguable fact.

But its been over 50 years since Brown vs. Board of education and it isn't the same America.

After 30+ years of the war on poverty what happened to the African American community? It disintegrated. Regulatory agenices created rules that made it easy to get on welfare and almost impossible to get off. Single mothers got more money that married mothers . . .so a portion of the community just did without familys, single mothers became the norm. No family structure, no fathers at home. This was a government crutch and it caused far more harm that it did good.

I believe that children, regardless of race, when challenged, instructed and encouraged will, on the whole, do well. I don't believe any child should be told, directly or implicitly, that they can't compete with another race or gender. My own eyes have seen the results, they most certainly will. We just have to have the courage to let them hit a wall and learn how to climb over it.

In 2007 universities and schools go out of their way to find and bring in blacks - and that is good. Government mandating it - that never works out right - like welfare - good intention - really bad results.

[advocate1234]

There was NO Segregation in Seattle!

Notably, contrary to what the District claimed, every school in the District had a diverse student body. For example, %u201Cthe District estimated that without the race-based tiebreaker, the nonwhite populations of the 2000-01 ninth grade class at Franklin High School would have been 79.2 percent, at Hale High School 30.5 percent, at Ballard High School 33 percent and at Roosevelt High School 41.1 percent. Using the race-based tiebreaker, the actual nonwhite populations of the ninth grade classes at the same schools respectively were 59.5 percent, 40.6 percent, 54.2 percent and 55.3 percent.%u201D 426 F.3d 1162.

Did you catch that? Since when is segregation defined as having a school with a 30% nonwhite student body? Why is there a compelling interest to reach the arbitrary 60/40 ratio?? Where is the evidence that 60/40 is optimal for learning?

http://copiousdissent.blogspot.com/2007/06/supreme-court-strikes-down-seattle.html

[advocate1234]

There was NO Segregation in Seattle!

Notably, contrary to what the District claimed, every school in the District had a diverse student body. For example, %u201Cthe District estimated that without the race-based tiebreaker, the nonwhite populations of the 2000-01 ninth grade class at Franklin High School would have been 79.2 percent, at Hale High School 30.5 percent, at Ballard High School 33 percent and at Roosevelt High School 41.1 percent. Using the race-based tiebreaker, the actual nonwhite populations of the ninth grade classes at the same schools respectively were 59.5 percent, 40.6 percent, 54.2 percent and 55.3 percent.%u201D 426 F.3d 1162.

Did you catch that? Since when is segregation defined as having a school with a 30% nonwhite student body? Why is there a compelling interest to reach the arbitrary 60/40 ratio?? Where is the evidence that 60/40 is optimal for learning?

http://copiousdissent.blogspot.com/2007/06/supreme-court-strikes-down-seattle.html

[advocate1234]

There was NO Segregation in Seattle!

Notably, contrary to what the District claimed, every school in the District had a diverse student body. For example, %u201Cthe District estimated that without the race-based tiebreaker, the nonwhite populations of the 2000-01 ninth grade class at Franklin High School would have been 79.2 percent, at Hale High School 30.5 percent, at Ballard High School 33 percent and at Roosevelt High School 41.1 percent. Using the race-based tiebreaker, the actual nonwhite populations of the ninth grade classes at the same schools respectively were 59.5 percent, 40.6 percent, 54.2 percent and 55.3 percent.%u201D 426 F.3d 1162.

Did you catch that? Since when is segregation defined as having a school with a 30% nonwhite student body? Why is there a compelling interest to reach the arbitrary 60/40 ratio?? Where is the evidence that 60/40 is optimal for learning?

http://copiousdissent.blogspot.com/2007/06/supreme-court-strikes-down-seattle.html

[huskerarmy]

Like the welfare reform change - if we take the crutches away we will find that people will rise to the occasion, overcome barriers and achieve.
Posted by jimmyc1955
I was there when there were no "cruches" as you call it and guess what... they didn't overcome. Base on your claim, why don't we just go back to good ole' Jim Crow. If we just take away their "crutches," or as some of us call them, "bootstraps," they will certainly overcome...

[samthetvcat]

Interesting points jimmyc1955 . . . I'll have to think about these for a bit - my mind's tired lol! :)

[jimmyc1955]

SamTheTVCat The question is what is the total impact to ALL students? Busing usually means as somebody gets bussed in - somebody else gets bussed out. My reading of the Harvard study is that the prime determinant of academic success isn't how much money we spend (if that were true America should be well ahead of the whole world because we spend more per capata on k-12 education than any nation on earth) but how much follow up is there at home for stressing the homework and study.

To your point about individuals - that I totally agree with. Individuals who don't give a *** will cause damage where ever they go. But this is an individual issue. The question that hasn't been proven, in my mind anyway, is that institutions will behave in that same callous way.

I don't believe you can legislate against ignorance and stupidity. No amount of court rulings will prevent a mean person for mean acts. And no court ruling will make a bad student a good student.

Like the welfare reform change - if we take the crutches away we will find that people will rise to the occasion, overcome barriers and achieve. And they will have achieved without wondering how much was their effort and how much was given to them. They will know, without a question, they can overcome any barrier they encounter - and that is the ultimate goal.

[samthetvcat]

PS I just found this article on another page of CBSnews.com:

"[Justice Kennedy} also said districts should be able to find creative ways to achieve their goals without relying on widespread racial classification.

One idea gaining ground is for school officials to use family income as a way to integrate schools economically.

Since minorities are often more likely to be poorer then their white peers, this can produce racial integration, said Richard Kahlenberg, a senior fellow at the Century Foundation, a liberal-leaning think tank in Washington. Importantly, he added, it wouldn't be scrutinized legally so long as it didn't rely on race.

"That's bulletproof," Kahlenberg said. "Using economic status is perfectly legal.""

* * *

So I guess Kennedy sided with the neo-cons in letter but not spirit of the law . . . I guess society will ultimately find a way to optimize itself . . .

[samthetvcat]

jimmyc1955 thanks for the info on the Michigan case. Yeah when it comes to these complex institutions with so many factors it is hard to know what will make a difference because so much has been tried with little success. Like sometimes I guess it is just a matter of trial and error. I can't actually point to anything to substantiate my prediction that education is going to get worse because of this ruling - I guess what alarmed me is the fact that it essentially creates defacto segregation and since school funds are dependent on local property tax there's going to be a two-tiered system (I think? Unless the city is rerouting funds?) AND the majority of the court doesn't seen to care. Maybe by dumb luck little damage will be done, or even better things will improve . . . I just find in life that if people really don't truly care about the effect their actions have on other people then their analysis isn't complete. But I guess time will tell . . .