Comments on: The Pentagon's Bionic Arm

60 Minutes: Pentagon Is Working To Develop A Life-Changing, High Tech Prosthetic Arm

[tigranolya]

wow. We are in the lead!

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[middleoftheroad]

Mr: Kuniholm:

Thank you for the informative post and the links. I'm glad you mentioned APL, and I was surprised that the Lab wasn't mentioned in the 60 minutes story.

I took a quick look at the links you referenced, and, I must admit, I am surprised at how far along the techniques are for controlling a limb using nerve impulses. To me, this seems like an incredibly complex problem. I know detecting the electrical signals from nerves is not very difficult, using very high dynamic range and low noise amplifiers. But detecting signals from a large singular nerve, such as the optic nerve, seems almost trivial compared to the number of nerves needed to control a hand and an arm.

I agree with you on the matters related to funding. Even if DARPA or another government agency increased the funding by another order of magnitude, I feel this would be well wroth the cost. Not only would advanced artificial limbs be produced, but advances in things like motor control techniques and signal processing would probably result. So, the return on investment would be great.

My posts were of a sarcastic nature, but they were in the same vein of your point on over-simplification. I think too often the public picks up on advancements in medicine and engineering and assume problems are already solved or easily solved. We hear the words "stem cells," and we assume they can be used for any medical problem.

[JonKuniholm]

I just wanted to respond to a few things, in case anyone who posted comments is still paying attention and is genuinely interested in the issues. A recent article I wrote on the topic addresses some of these and gives an overview of the economic constraints of the market for prosthetic arms here:
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/print/7908
Some pictures of one of the Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Lab arms is here (this is the prototype that is the basis of the final design, which is in progress):
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/print/7105

I should say first that the pattern recognition technology presented in the video is merely a tool of my research, and not something that I developed. Kevin Englehart's group at the University of New Brunswick in Frederickton, Canada, has been doing this stuff for more than 20 years, and is in fact what enables the recent targeted reinnervation patients to do anything with their rearranged nerves and muscles (http://www.unb.ca/biomed/people_englehart.php).

Given the size of the market, it is truly a wonder that anything at all is being spent on prosthetic arms. For this we (researchers and patients) are thankful, even though, as many comments have pointed out, $100 million is not much. In fact, it's less than the cost of a single Joint Strike Fighter. While I believe that Col Ling is absolutely right that the technical challenge here is equivalent to the Manhattan Project or the Apollo Project, the relative budgets are nowhere near comparable. In 2006 dollars, these budgets were nearly $25 billion and $130 billion, respectively, with the R&D budget (procurement excluded) of the Joint Strike Fighter project weighing in at almost $50 billion. What Col Ling's researchers have accomplished on their relatively small budget is amazing (and it should be pointed out that DEKA got the smaller share).

For these reasons, I think that it is imperative that the impact of the government's investment here be maximized. I'll simply say that as I pointed out in the IEEE article above, I think that standard open interfaces for control and componentry are crucial to the continued evolution of these devices. Such an architecture would allow, for example, an alternative to the foot controller. I haven't tried it, but I have the same question as the commenter who referenced walking. In any case, we have seen over the last 30 years what the we get when this tiny market is dominated by a single company (not DEKA or JHU), and this industry is in serious need of some collaborative innovation. Even multiple companies in competition over the small market is not the solution, and since the government is writing the checks, I hope that it ensures that we get our money's worth.

I'll simply make a more general point related to many of the other comments, of the "why don't they" sort. One problem is that most reports on science in the media make the mistake of simplifying the discussion to emphasize the simplest point with the highest impact, often at the expense of nuance. This can leave the impression that much more has been accomplished than really has. This applies to the ease with which other "ready for Discovery Channel" technologies can actually be applied to this problem, or to the ease with which the technology presented can actually make it to market.

Despite the fact that I'm an engineer working on one of these projects, and a DoD retiree with Cadillac insurance, I still wear the same hook that Fred Downs does. Because I have more of my arm than he does, I can pick up a grape and feed it to myself with that 1940s design. 75% of amputees are like me. For us, the problem is how to reproduce the function of the hand and wrist, and that goes far beyond the grape.

There is more discussion of many of these issues and interesting projects that volunteers are working on at the Open Prosthetics Project:
http://openprosthetics.wikispot.org/
http://openprosthetics.ning.com/

Jon Kuniholm

[db5y]

Another of Dean Kamen's "innovations": www.usfirst.org

FIRST Robotics is an awesome experience for kids. Well, yes, and adults too!

[free2write]

where in that article does it say that mit doesn't
have the capability to grow limbs with stem-cells,
or isn't working with stem-cells?

[middleoftheroad]

a little or none at all:
http://spectrum.mit.edu/issue/2002-spring/the-heart-challenge/

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself --
and you are the easiest person to fool." -- richard feynman
Posted by free2write at 12:43 PM : Apr 13, 2009
--------------
So where in that article does it say that MIT has the capability to grow limbs with stem cells, or is doing anything with stem cells?

[free2write]

a little or none at all:
http://spectrum.mit.edu/issue/2002-spring/the-heart-challenge/

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself --
and you are the easiest person to fool." -- richard feynman

[free2write]

i have the utmost respect for all involved.

the story simply got me angry because the money shoved
into programs to kill seems to be matched only by the hope
of those involved in this project.

i was simply trying to push the collective envelope --
many of the objections here were about
not being cost effective; that question seems
to be asked far less often when the project is for guns.

with $300 billion in pentagon cost overruns there should
be no cost effective or per-unit cost objections -- how can
you not get angry with that disparity in waste and priorities.

[scientist71]

FYI- there are programs to grow limbs with stem cells, and they are making great progress. You might see something by 2011.

[JustMeFL]

"'And when you lose your hand you've lost something that makes you human," Pelley remarked.' "

This is tantamount to calling someone without a hand less than human. It is this type of attitude that people with disabilities continually struggle against. For it to appear on a 60 Minutes story - which should surely have higher standards - is very sad.

[kaylasmom117]

I agree with you 100%. I could not believe my ears when I heard them say that. I was watching the show with my daughter who is a congenital amputee of her left hand. She is still young enough so she could not understand what they were saying, but had she been older I cant imagine the conversation that would have followed trying to explain to her that she was no less human because she is missing her left hand. I imagine that we, like any family with a loved on missing a limb,are the target audience of a story like this and it was very irresponsible and somewhat offensive of Pelley to make that remark. This story was suppose to give hope to those who struggle with a missing limb not insult them and imply that they are less human then anyone else.