Comments on: The Pentagon's Bionic Arm

60 Minutes: Pentagon Is Working To Develop A Life-Changing, High Tech Prosthetic Arm

[tigranolya]

wow. We are in the lead!

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[middleoftheroad]

Mr: Kuniholm:

Thank you for the informative post and the links. I'm glad you mentioned APL, and I was surprised that the Lab wasn't mentioned in the 60 minutes story.

I took a quick look at the links you referenced, and, I must admit, I am surprised at how far along the techniques are for controlling a limb using nerve impulses. To me, this seems like an incredibly complex problem. I know detecting the electrical signals from nerves is not very difficult, using very high dynamic range and low noise amplifiers. But detecting signals from a large singular nerve, such as the optic nerve, seems almost trivial compared to the number of nerves needed to control a hand and an arm.

I agree with you on the matters related to funding. Even if DARPA or another government agency increased the funding by another order of magnitude, I feel this would be well wroth the cost. Not only would advanced artificial limbs be produced, but advances in things like motor control techniques and signal processing would probably result. So, the return on investment would be great.

My posts were of a sarcastic nature, but they were in the same vein of your point on over-simplification. I think too often the public picks up on advancements in medicine and engineering and assume problems are already solved or easily solved. We hear the words "stem cells," and we assume they can be used for any medical problem.

[JonKuniholm]

I just wanted to respond to a few things, in case anyone who posted comments is still paying attention and is genuinely interested in the issues. A recent article I wrote on the topic addresses some of these and gives an overview of the economic constraints of the market for prosthetic arms here:
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/print/7908
Some pictures of one of the Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Lab arms is here (this is the prototype that is the basis of the final design, which is in progress):
http://www.spectrum.ieee.org/print/7105

I should say first that the pattern recognition technology presented in the video is merely a tool of my research, and not something that I developed. Kevin Englehart's group at the University of New Brunswick in Frederickton, Canada, has been doing this stuff for more than 20 years, and is in fact what enables the recent targeted reinnervation patients to do anything with their rearranged nerves and muscles (http://www.unb.ca/biomed/people_englehart.php).

Given the size of the market, it is truly a wonder that anything at all is being spent on prosthetic arms. For this we (researchers and patients) are thankful, even though, as many comments have pointed out, $100 million is not much. In fact, it's less than the cost of a single Joint Strike Fighter. While I believe that Col Ling is absolutely right that the technical challenge here is equivalent to the Manhattan Project or the Apollo Project, the relative budgets are nowhere near comparable. In 2006 dollars, these budgets were nearly $25 billion and $130 billion, respectively, with the R&D budget (procurement excluded) of the Joint Strike Fighter project weighing in at almost $50 billion. What Col Ling's researchers have accomplished on their relatively small budget is amazing (and it should be pointed out that DEKA got the smaller share).

For these reasons, I think that it is imperative that the impact of the government's investment here be maximized. I'll simply say that as I pointed out in the IEEE article above, I think that standard open interfaces for control and componentry are crucial to the continued evolution of these devices. Such an architecture would allow, for example, an alternative to the foot controller. I haven't tried it, but I have the same question as the commenter who referenced walking. In any case, we have seen over the last 30 years what the we get when this tiny market is dominated by a single company (not DEKA or JHU), and this industry is in serious need of some collaborative innovation. Even multiple companies in competition over the small market is not the solution, and since the government is writing the checks, I hope that it ensures that we get our money's worth.

I'll simply make a more general point related to many of the other comments, of the "why don't they" sort. One problem is that most reports on science in the media make the mistake of simplifying the discussion to emphasize the simplest point with the highest impact, often at the expense of nuance. This can leave the impression that much more has been accomplished than really has. This applies to the ease with which other "ready for Discovery Channel" technologies can actually be applied to this problem, or to the ease with which the technology presented can actually make it to market.

Despite the fact that I'm an engineer working on one of these projects, and a DoD retiree with Cadillac insurance, I still wear the same hook that Fred Downs does. Because I have more of my arm than he does, I can pick up a grape and feed it to myself with that 1940s design. 75% of amputees are like me. For us, the problem is how to reproduce the function of the hand and wrist, and that goes far beyond the grape.

There is more discussion of many of these issues and interesting projects that volunteers are working on at the Open Prosthetics Project:
http://openprosthetics.wikispot.org/
http://openprosthetics.ning.com/

Jon Kuniholm

[db5y]

Another of Dean Kamen's "innovations": www.usfirst.org

FIRST Robotics is an awesome experience for kids. Well, yes, and adults too!

[free2write]

where in that article does it say that mit doesn't
have the capability to grow limbs with stem-cells,
or isn't working with stem-cells?

[middleoftheroad]

a little or none at all:
http://spectrum.mit.edu/issue/2002-spring/the-heart-challenge/

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself --
and you are the easiest person to fool." -- richard feynman
Posted by free2write at 12:43 PM : Apr 13, 2009
--------------
So where in that article does it say that MIT has the capability to grow limbs with stem cells, or is doing anything with stem cells?

[free2write]

a little or none at all:
http://spectrum.mit.edu/issue/2002-spring/the-heart-challenge/

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself --
and you are the easiest person to fool." -- richard feynman

[free2write]

i have the utmost respect for all involved.

the story simply got me angry because the money shoved
into programs to kill seems to be matched only by the hope
of those involved in this project.

i was simply trying to push the collective envelope --
many of the objections here were about
not being cost effective; that question seems
to be asked far less often when the project is for guns.

with $300 billion in pentagon cost overruns there should
be no cost effective or per-unit cost objections -- how can
you not get angry with that disparity in waste and priorities.

[scientist71]

FYI- there are programs to grow limbs with stem cells, and they are making great progress. You might see something by 2011.

[JustMeFL]

"'And when you lose your hand you've lost something that makes you human," Pelley remarked.' "

This is tantamount to calling someone without a hand less than human. It is this type of attitude that people with disabilities continually struggle against. For it to appear on a 60 Minutes story - which should surely have higher standards - is very sad.

[kaylasmom117]

I agree with you 100%. I could not believe my ears when I heard them say that. I was watching the show with my daughter who is a congenital amputee of her left hand. She is still young enough so she could not understand what they were saying, but had she been older I cant imagine the conversation that would have followed trying to explain to her that she was no less human because she is missing her left hand. I imagine that we, like any family with a loved on missing a limb,are the target audience of a story like this and it was very irresponsible and somewhat offensive of Pelley to make that remark. This story was suppose to give hope to those who struggle with a missing limb not insult them and imply that they are less human then anyone else.

[middleoftheroad]

(1) why isn't dr. ling getting kuniholm and kamen to collaborate --
control by toes seemed silly once you saw the control by nerves;

(2) why don't they body-scan soldiers so we have
exact arm dimensions in a database; when possible,
why don't they scan the remaining arm and mirror its
dimensions mathematically so that we have an exact
replica of the person's limb; they use similar techniques
for silly electronic sports games but not for this;

(3) why aren't they feeding those real-world anatomical
dimensions into their computer-assisted prefabrication;

(4) why aren't they using fiber-optics to send signals -- wires are so 1980's;

(5) why aren't they using fiber-bundles to simulate finger nerve-endings;

(6) why aren't they employing advanced material scientists
to create advanced gels and ceramics for external parts;

(7) why isn't mit using stem-cells to grow arms;

Posted by free2write at 4:03 AM : Apr 13, 2009
-------------------------
A perfect example of why a little knowledge is sometimes worse than none at all.

(1) You didn't pay attention to the story. Jonathan Kuniholm wasn't controlling the arm by sensing nerve impulses. He was detecting the movement of muscles still remaining in the amputated limb. This is far different than the incredibly complex task of reading nerve signals, interpreting which ones mean what, and then basing movement on this information.

(2) Who says they won't? The arm shown in the story is a protoype.

(3) See (2).

(4) Why should they use fiber-optics to send signals? It's unnecessarily expensive, complicated and less reliable when copper wires work just fine.

(5) Huh?

(6) Gels for what? They probably are using ceramics.

(7) I could give you many reasons, but here are two: stem cell therapy is not nearly that advanced (if it's even possible); MIT is not known as a medical research institution.

[trueyank]

I could only ask you consider a few points before you attack, Dr. Ling, Mr. Kamen or any other entity or person connected with this project. First point, you have every right to be critical of any issue our government is involved with. The men and women in rehab at Walter Reid sacrificed themselve to protect that right. We have an obligation as a society to make an honest attempt to care for these heroes. This is our sacrifice, with the same integrity as our brave soldiers, no matter the cost. Second point, this stuff is hard. I believe Dr. Ling's reference to compare this venture to the Manhattan Project was to show that his team is committed to finding a solution. There is technology yet to be invented, which will benefit us all in the long term. Last point, Before you refer to these gentlemen as Morons or any other ill-referenced term, I would suggest you take a good hard look in the mirror and make a list of what your contributions to our society really are.

As a taxpayer myself, I have no problem supporting our veterans and wish we could do more.

[geminispyder-2009]

that is no way this development is on the scale of a manhattan project.
Posted by free2write at 4:03 AM : Apr 13, 2009

(1) technology has not been perfected; not many bionic arms mass produced, so no widely accepted standard design
(2) anybody that has spent 5 mins in the engineering or manufacturing field knows customization to taylor a single person is not cost-efficient
(3) see #2
(4) see #1, technology not perfected; any engineer knows you don't make an advanced prototype (such as manufactured limbs using fiber-optics when there has been no accepted standard for such usage) unless the basic operational prototype has been proven
(5) see #1, 4
(6) see #4
(7) see #5

[evane123]

I think the bionic arm could mimic the other arm when the other arm moves less distance.

[free2write]

(1) why isn't dr. ling getting kuniholm and kamen to collaborate --
control by toes seemed silly once you saw the control by nerves;

(2) why don't they body-scan soldiers so we have
exact arm dimensions in a database; when possible,
why don't they scan the remaining arm and mirror its
dimensions mathematically so that we have an exact
replica of the person's limb; they use similar techniques
for silly electronic sports games but not for this;

(3) why aren't they feeding those real-world anatomical
dimensions into their computer-assisted prefabrication;

(4) why aren't they using fiber-optics to send signals -- wires are so 1980's;

(5) why aren't they using fiber-bundles to simulate finger nerve-endings;

(6) why aren't they employing advanced material scientists
to create advanced gels and ceramics for external parts;

(7) why isn't mit using stem-cells to grow arms;

(8) you could fit 240 deka-arm projects into one manhattan project.

that is no way this development is on the scale of a manhattan project.

[searingtruth]

A fantastic future.

If we only embrace it.
ST


"Yes indeed, I have a new plan, for all of you. A plan of hope. A plan of adventure. A plan of such extraordinary magnitude as to take the breath, and challenge the senses, of all who would consider it. A plan to bind our common people in hope, and finally free our conscience for noble purpose."
SearingTruth, A Future of the Brave

A Future of the Brave

[IndyFIRSTengineer]

As someone very involved in FIRST Robotics (founded by Dean Kamen) I have been aware of Dean's incredible contributions to society over his lifetime. He continues to inspire those of us in the technical arena, as well as the next genertation of our brightest engineers and scientists.

Thank you for this wonderful report.

That was genuinely beautiful.

[lsmagno]

How do you get more information on the leg part of your story? It was a minor part of your story, but I lost my leg in an accident 3 years ago and am having problems getting a prosthetic leg. A company named Symmetry is supposed to be working w/Walter Reed to deal w/situations very much like mine (the complications). They have designed a prosthetic leg w/ a socket about 1/2 the size of the standard size, but they won't share their technology. That is my only hope of being able to get a leg (the new socket design). So I am in HIGH hopes maybe you can give me more leads on prosthetic makers working w/Walter Reed. Time is running out before I am forever stuck in a wheel chair if we don't get me up on a prosthetic leg soon. Symmetry expects everyone to come to Alabama several times for a week @ a time to get their new leg and of course all your follow-up appointments too. I can't do that. I am in WA (the state) and want to walk again very badly. I am an above the knee amputee so any addtional information you can give me would be greatly appreciated. I know our military has paid the ultimate price and people like me are benefiting from the new technology that is out there. The problem is how do we find it and use it? I really appreciated your story and the information and hope you did provide, and hope you can provide me w/some contacts so maybe I can get more information so I can walk again. THANK YOU!!!

[AustinTX1]

Thank you for reporting on this remarkable technology. I would like to thank everyone involved with this project for the hard work that they have put in. This technology will truely benefit those who have lost an arm for whatever reason and will enable them to regain a part of what they have lost. While the horrors of war are indeed unspeakable, breakthroughs like this may be one of the few posititive outcomes that give rise to hope for a better future.