Comments on: Maximum Security Education

How Some Inmates Are Getting A Top-Notch Education Behind Bars

[toldyouso21]

I learned not to blame parents, most of whom are doing the best they can. Posted by bwb17little at 10:11 AM : Apr 16, 2007

YOu may have "learned" not to blame the parents, but often--parents are a major part of the blame--many expect society and schools to raise their children and abdicate all responsibility. People fail to shape their children forgetting that we do not raise kids solely for our own enjoyment--but also to be viable members of society. Therefore from the time they are a few months old--we begin to set limits, teach rules, consequences--we SHAPE and MOLD them--not just work and buy them lots of STUFF. All of my children are/were honor students (except one that I did not raise--stepson in Europe) do not do drugs (yet), or have premarital *** before they were 18. How do I know? They go to work, go to school, take college courses and actually WANT to hang out with me. Their time is accounted for. Their friends also seem to like to hang out with my family so they often accompany us on family outings. It is not about the resources, or even the dynamic (I was a single parent at times for a total of almost 7 years)It is about having a plan (in how to raise children) and following through. Face it, we require knowledge and tests for driving a car--but require nothing for people to have and raise a human being.

[pippermouse]

toldyouso has said it best! Priviledge? I know some kids who do have rotten parents and they are now doctors; teachers; etc. You make your own choices regardless of your upbringing or finances. I think that "babying" people who made HUGE WRONG CHOICES like murder and hurting others CANNOT be helped - EVER. And even if there really were changed? Forget it - I don't want that person anywhere around me or my family again! I truly believe that unless you have been a victim of a violent crime or have a loved one who has been - you absolutely CANNOT grasp what it feels like to say that these kinds of people deserve anything LESS than to rot in jail and never be let out again. Forget the internet; forget the education; forget watching TV!! The old bread and water thing would be best with a copy of the Koran or the Bible in their cells. Let them choke on THAT and study THAT and learn from THAT!!! If that doesn't help then I think dropping them all on an island and letting them fend for themselves would be best. I'm sure that the little girl who was raped and buried alive recently would think so as well. I KNOW A PERSON PERSONALLY who will be out of prison soon. He got a 30 year sentence for drowning his 9 month preganant wife and his 3 year old son. Chased them through the woods til he caught them. "I sure hope he got his college education" while he was in there -- so then when he gets out soon he can be a productive citizen again. He "deserves" that.

[toldyouso21]

Those kids are our problem. A decent education, moral as well as academic, is not a handout. It should be the right of every American.
Posted by bwb17little at 10:11 AM : Apr 16, 2007


Very idealistic, unfortunately, not the reality. If education was the sole answer to productive lives, then this would be a panacea and everyone who went to college would be a productive citizen. But most never finish and the ideal is just not true. Environment and how one is raised will determine how one values or devalues education and societal rules and therefore will determine who will go on to succeed. I raised 4 children from day 1 and influenced several more. My kids range in ages from 25 to 9 with 3 being grown. I was very involved in their lives. Sleepovers to a minimum, when they did stuff with friends, I chaperoned or checked in on them until they were over 16. They were taught to say please, no thank you, to not run in stores or touch things that did not belong to them, to not yell, kick seats or stareat others. To not denigrate They were taught to value education, themselves and others. They were allowed to speak their mind (and they are very opinionated) but they were also taught to respect authority and when an issue was a mandate--to go along with the program. End of part 2

[toldyouso21]

I learned not to blame parents, most of whom are doing the best they canPosted by bwb17little at 10:11 AM : Apr 16, 2007

Herein lies the crux of the problem.
Parents ARE usually to blame. Many are too busy confusing the provision of buying THINGS to actually spending TIME raising their children. Children are not adequately guided and raised. I see so many small kids and young adults who have no discipline or manners. Parents often confuse being a "buddy" or doting parent with being a good parent. Their kids talk back to them, run around stores and kick other people's chairs in theaters and on planes. They are the people who think that if they love their child's antics--the rest of us must also. These are people who failed to set limits, failed to vet their children's friends and activities and then, are shocked to learn their kids are having ***, doing drugs, etc. These are people who let their children go to homes where they do not know the parents, who often let their children "hang out" with people they do not know and spend little to no time getting to know them.

[toldyouso21]

Posted by pippermouse at 09:56 AM : Apr 16, 2007

I absolutely agree with you. I too, was from a very poor family and in fact lived a good portion of my life in the worst neighborhoods (ghetto). Even in the ghetto, there are choices and each person makes them. I chose not to do drugs, I chose not to break the law, and I chose to pursue an education. I worked 3 jobs to finish school. What is the fault of society? Having a philosophy of "live and let live" we allow many people who have no business doing so--to inadequately raise children. All of us are a product of our lives. Growing up, I may not have had many material things, but I was raised in a family were honor, integrity and values were paramount and where my mom made very sure that my access to the wrong kinds of friends and activities was strictly controlled and limited. My main place to "hang out" was the library (which often had great activities) and I did not engage in *** of any sort before the age of 18. That was by choice and because my mother asked us to wait until that age. So we did. All of us believe in discipline and raising our children to be respectful and have good manners. Ghetto is not just a place, it is a state of mind--you can live in a mansion or suburb and have a ghetto mindset---the ghetto mindset is anything goes to get what you want and always to look for the loopholes to any rules. Bush and his cabal have a ghetto mindset--they just have not been caught yet to pay the price for that.

[bwb17little]

Privilige is not always about money, Pippermouse. It can be about having a good parent, or even two. It can be about finding friends, peers or adults, who can help a young person through the mine field of growing up. I truly don't want to make assumptions about you or anyone else. But in over 3 decades of teaching really troubled teens, I met only a small handful who didn't earnestly want to be the best they could be, given half a chance. I learned not to blame parents, most of whom are doing the best they can. But what about the children who do not learn right from wrong from their parents, who may not even be around for their kids, who might be incarcerated themselves. Those kids are our problem. A decent education, moral as well as academic, is not a handout. It should be the right of every American.

[pippermouse]

one more thing....bwb17little - if you want to FUND these programs with YOUR tax dollar - you go RIGHT ahead and do so. Don't tell me where I should or shouln't have to spend MY tax dollar.

[toldyouso21]

I imagine that if for all violent crimes conclusively committed by people resulted in immediate execution--the recidivisim rate would be 0. That implies a 100% success program and the guarantee that the level of violence could never be contributed to ex cons falling back into bad behavior. We are mistaken in thinking incarceration is a decent or even humane thing. On the contrary, the environment is one in which many lose their sense of humanity (yep this is a set up) and yet, some actually THRIVE and relish the environment. It all depends on the individual and whether they have had a lifetime of crime. The crime rate in America would decrease significantly if all crimes involving guns, all rapes, molestations or crimes involving the physical harm of others were to result in death. and to relieve the tax burden, it could be carried out in 6 weeks or less. this may sound extreme, but this country is fast and inevitably approaching just such an extreme position.

[pippermouse]

One of those NAYSAYERS here again! Don't tell me to look in the mirror! I have NO regrets and to bwb17little -- you have NO idea what my life has been and being priveledged CERTAINLY wasn't one of them!! I like many other people who had HARD lives - didn't grow up to be criminals! Knowing right from wrong is the key here and if you didn't learn that from your parents than that's not MY problem! I raised my own children to be law abiding and I expect others to do the same. HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with your background and being poor!! I WAS POOR!!!! So don't even THINK about telling me that I feel the way I do because of a priveledged life!! I got where I am today because I'm a good person - NOT expecting handouts from society! If anybody should look in the mirror it's the parents who FAILED MISERABLE at raising their children!

[toldyouso21]

Higher education for prison inmates is NOT new at all.What is new is it being offered on someone else's tab. This is, of course a slap in the face to law abiding citizens and before the liberal police rise up in alarm, I think you better check the figures on how many college educated inmates return to a life of crime and how many become productive, non criminal members of society. I know quite a few Jail house lawyers and people who went to prison and later got an education. Almost ALL of them eventually returned to prison. Of the few who stayed clean, 3 were murdered by people they knew in prison who had a score to settle. One of the murders also included an innocent bystander who happened to be a client of the educated felon.

[christinal68]

How many times Lord shall I forgive my brother? 70 x 7.. Meaning, as many times as he asks.
Everyone messes up at some point in life. Some mistakes are Huge and some tiny. You people knocking this program, need to take a good look in the mirror, I really know you will not see a Perfect person looking back at you. Any program that helps a person change for the better is a GREAT PROGRAM and people should really start helping this program and more like it. If we all learn to help one another, hmm, maybe Huge mistakes will go away! BARD: Thank You for your program.

[bwb17little]

Having taught in an urban,public, special ed school for more than 30 years, I felt I could recognize some of these guys--the bright kids, easily bored, alienated, living in families and communities that expect way too little from them. This wonderful program is giving them a chance to really grow and change in positive ways. To the naysayers, have you never made a bad decision with horrible consequencs, especially at a young age? Have you never considered the combination of privilige and luck that has kept you so self-righteous? Kudos to the producers, the program in the prison, to Bard, Botstein and the professors. I, for one, would be proud to fund such programs with my tax dollars. Far better than sending our young people to die for lies at much greater cost.

[toldyouso21]

It is a well known fact that the 5 factors that influence the success of education are: Environment, Peers, personal determination/incentive to learn (usually influenced by families), mentors, chosen education. For prisoners--the environment includes lying, stealing, use of drugs, killing, raping, torturing, torturing, and is all of societies ills exponentially multiplied. The peers include like minded individuals--many of who cannot be educated--because they do not want to be or do not respect anything except brute force.
Those of us who have lived long enough know that education in the wrong subject will NOT get you employed. Mentors may be few and far between. In short, we are taking the people who have failed society and whom society has failed and after stacking the cards even more in opposition against them--are seeing how many of them can succeed in a known failed enviroment.

This seems like more of a warm fuzzy for bleeding hearts and those who like to think they are helping than a pragmatic solution.

[toldyouso21]

In Europe and every westernized country on earth (and most others) there is always an elite group. Then the masses and finally the downtrodden. Even communist countries have this dynamic, the elite getting the best homes, food, opportunities, etc, the middle paying for everything and the bottom getting very little and often being used to defuse the anger and frustration of the larger class. This may sound cynical, but this dynamic is nothing new. In many European cultures, this dynamic is further delineated by bloodlines or titles which others cannot cross without permission. This is a way of keeping many out who could, through hard work claim a place in a higher society. Each level has its own manners, way of speaking, educational standards, places they live. In Europe you can have a lot of money and still not be able to get into a higher society--it used to be that way in America also) This means that rappers and others with no manners, no education, no taste, no culture--can be at the top of the heap but it also means that as others view what "success" means, they may conclude that it has little to do with education or becoming cultured and more to do with getting or learning the right "hustle" and THAT is how one can accelerate a decline in a society fairly quickly. To keep the largest group from realizing how they are being exploited, they are given the lowest group to hate, blame and feel better about not being them.

[toldyouso21]

Why can't we be more enlightened about programs like this one AND provide financial assistance to nonincarcerated students who want to go to college? Posted by jewsaleh at 08:24 PM : Apr 15, 2007

America actually does NOT want to educate people at the bottom of the spectrum. We must realize that the government has a vested interest in keeping some people (of all races) at the bottom and maintaining educational, cultural and societal barriers between each strata in society. The reasoning is that someone HAS to be LOWER to make everyone else feel better about their own position. This group is scapegoated so that others will focus on them and not focus on the system that ensures where they stand. If they are very resourceful and determined, they will rise above their circumstance and thereby EARN their place in a higher strata. This is done deliberately in order to distract the population and attempt to cultivate growth at a certain level. After all, if everyone could afford education, where exactly would the jobs come from and who would then be on the bottom?

end of part 1

[pippermouse]

I just don't get it. I've read so many comments about how great this program is. BULL. Lets REWARD everybody who makes really bad decisions! Where are the parents of these people when they were growing up?? I know EXACTLY where they were.......the apple RARELY falls far from the tree! Don't make society try to FIX your failures in life - keep your pants on and don't be parents if you can't raise them to be decent human beings!! I've heard will once they get "out" they'll be better citizens. I don't buy it for a second! They shouldn't GET OUT in the first place! You screw up in this life and you shouldn't GET a second chance! If life could only be like it was in the "olden days" - a good strong rope would fix everything!

[toldyouso21]

One of the greatest disparities in our institutions of higher learning is the racial divide in liberal studies programs Posted by maoriii at 08:12 PM : Apr 15, 2007

What a slap in the face to middle class kids whose families theoretically make too much to qualify for grants or financial aid, but whose family obligations do not leave room for financing college or even getting loans. Law abiding citizens take note--this education ***** (sic) is not new, it was tried in the 1960s and 1970s and we got a lot of euridite speaking criminals.


But all of that notwithstanding...a liberal arts degree? You DID want them to get a job didn't you? Or are they to wax lyrically and extoll the virtues of education while they live under a bridge, or while they are on their way to a bank heist so they can actually EAT?

Try a practical education, maybe vocational--do it like the military and teach actual skills--there is nothing more incongruous and self defeating than a criminal who philosophizes yet cannot make a decent living.

[toldyouso21]

It is a well known fact that people who go to prison learn to be better and more dangerous criminals. It is also well known that the more educated a criminal, the more dangerous and devious they are--after all, a lifestyle and incarceration which has taught the value of strength and cunning over following the rules (no one follows or trusts the rules--cons and guards exploit the rules)is not going to simply cancel out their "upbringing" just because they have received education. Instead, they will incorporate this new tool into their previous mindset. Those who do so successfully, will graduate from petty crime to cons, even more successful? Then to elaborate ponzi schemes or perhaps at the apex--become the next Ken Lay or maybe even the next Karl Rove. Without a doubt, if they can--most will join the Republican party--where their new found skills will be both admired, appreciated and used to the benefit of the GOP agenda. See www.armchairsubversive.com

[toldyouso21]

If one looked at the recidivism of criminals and the escalation of bad behavior once a person is in the system--if one observed the day to day life and interactions of prisoner's on a day to day basis--if we could track and follow most who were put in and regardless of educational opportunities still stayed in the same mind set. If we could simply note that there are many factors that lead to prison in the first place and many, many more that ensure a lifetime of crime--if we could do all of that and realize educating a criminal can often, give them a different kind of gun--one could conclude that when a person is sent to prison, he should never, ever be allowed back into society.

One could also conclude that monies might be better spent educating people and providing resources to people at risk to become criminals, thereby cutting off the problem before it starts. No amount of learning or books can negate or nullify the ugly reality of prison. It can soften it, but when the books get put away for the day...that con must live out the rest of his time in that place--and must do whatever it takes to survive in that place. So exactly what is education teaching him/her? Debate is seldom a good weapon in prison. Brute Strength and criminal mental acuity is much more an option and much more respected.

[toldyouso21]

Prisons are a world unto themselves. They are criminals and criminality concentrated and held within a small city. Rape, torture, drugs, extortion, snitching, gangs, stealing, cabals, agendas, etc is not only rampant--they are necessities for survival.

Not only do those who go in, return to society as better criminals, they return with alliances and marching orders that they often must honor. Also, police on the outside often pressure criminals to snitch or even commit crimes to further their own agendas (like catching a bigger fish and making the criminal, hold or sell drugs or infiltrate a group on the law's behalf) if they refuse, they are told they will be framed and returned to jail...or that they will be labeled a snitch so they can be targeted. Rehabilitation rarely works because people cannot escape the life in prison due to pressures by the inmates and by the system. When people get out, they see the world and the people in them differently. After years of being predators and being honed in an environment so harsh and evil that they either are made or broken by it--they become in a sense like our military--they see a huge difference between themselves and the population at large. The main difference--the pop. is soft, gullible, and undisciplined---many who go to jail are tainted for life and have contempt for the honest, law abiding citizen. Education does not change this, it gives many another tool in their arsenal.