Comments on: Maximum Security Education

How Some Inmates Are Getting A Top-Notch Education Behind Bars

[pakaal]

"Most cons do NOT want another way of life"
Posted by toldyouso21

In your post you go from generalization to generalization. It seems to me your idea is to take away these opportunities from all, just because some (and I dispute your statement "most" since you can't back that up) cons abuse the system. I know of a number of companies here who have intentionally hired ex-felons to give them a second chance. Sure, many of these people may be lifetime criminals, but many are not. They are already punished twice in most states (imprisonment and then permanent loss of right to vote). What do you think you're teaching them when you deny them the chance to better their lives while in prison? Sounds to me like you want to punish them yet again.

[jejack-2009]

I've never seen so many "glass half empty" types post comments on a subject! It seems to me that this program is doing something quite wonderful. If only one or two inmates take this opportunity seriously - and are able to begin looking at the world in a different, more thoughtful way - the investment by Bard will be more than worth it. Remember, these are the guys who are going back out in the world following their incarceration and who may be the one you run into one night in a quick trip to the convenience store...

[sclaires]

If parents would discipline and educate their children of what is right and wrong, that would go a long way in perhaps helping keep down the prison population. I am now 65 and I can remember back to when I was in first grade (can't remember back further) and how I was taught by my parents to say Mr., Mrs., Aunt, Uncle, etc and if I didn't, I was very quickly corrected and made to use the correct title for the individual. And, then there was "Please" and "Thank You" and "May I" which I had to use. And, if I did something I shouldn't, I got a swat on the backside which quickly educated me in what was right and wrong. If the children of this day and age were taught and educated in what was right and wrong and common courtesy, I think that would go a long way in helping some of the individuals who are now in prison not to have gone there to begin with.

A college education for a prison inmate does not guarantee that they will be able to find a job in civilized society. All it does is let the personnel department of the business know that the individual did the work to get a college diploma but does not let them know just how rehabilitated they are. That will come only with hard work and by starting at the bottom and proving that they can do the job and not have visitors from their past come into the business and create trouble in one form or the other.

[toldyouso21]

????Who will hire these college educated felons? Unlike other types of personal information, employers ARE alllowed to discriminate based on criminal history and can limit exposure of their other personnel to such people. In other words, Bard may be educating these people just enough to realize they are in a catch 22--prior to prison, they could not get a decent job without a higher education...and now that they have that education, they cannot get a decent job because they have been to prison.

Don't think this is just a matter of ostracizing felons. Several years ago, a man I knew (who was an ex-con) was at work with a client when someone from prison came to pay him a visit. The visitor not only gave "payback" for prison wrongs to this man, but also to the innocent bystander. That reason alone is enough for employers to NOT want to be involved with former felons--you don't know who they know, what they have done, and what can happen for being around them in the future

[toldyouso21]

Some are you are acting like education is a magic bullet. Please explain the failure to slow the recidivistic rate of cons in the 1970s and 1980s when almost all major prisons boasted a tax payer funded college program in Prison. Also, please note that those with college education commit crimes to. Kenneth Lay, Scooter Libby, Ollie North et al are all College grads. Stop trying to act as if the only reason these people were crooks was because they could not get a decent job.

I have friends in those ghettoes who BRAG about not needing college. Many think college is a copout for suckers, AND they say those who do it in prison often do it for the perks, they get out of general pop., don't have to have other jobs they may not want and can minimize their association with other dangerous criminals. In short they are NOT doing it to get smart--but as a scam to get out of doing other stuff. Those friends in the "hood " without degrees? They may be making 2 to 8 thousand dollars each week (who knows?) they drive jags, escalades, etc., they are 'balling" in other words making a lot of money. TAlk to a gangbanger about a 9 to 5 where he can make 50K a year and not in a month and he will look at you and laugh. Most cons do NOT want another way of life

[pippermouse]

One last comment from me - is if toldyouso ran for president - I'd be thrilled to vote! I think he/she should be on 60 minutes to talk about the other side of this issue.

[pippermouse]

cg4582 - what I meant was - is that you are defending criminals in your praise of the prisons that are full of criminals who claim to be "changed people" with an education. I'm sure offenders wish everyone felt like you do.I'm sure you are a fine upstanding citizen. Because of your history you know what and what NOT to do. But defending criminal "rights" in my opinion is just wrong. They gave up those rights when they chose to break the law.

[toldyouso21]

Meanwhile, go to www.rateyourstudents.com and read how students in the free world actually treat their professors. Read how seriously they take *their* education. Posted by JaneM91 at 05:27 PM : Apr 16, 2007

I went to the site you listed above. It is under construction and seems to only be links from peer to peer. I saw no links for archives or any type of blog or forum. Please elaborate.

[pippermouse]

Our prison population would drop IF children were raised by decent people! It's not the job of the world or the government to make sure you learn manners and what is right and wrong. That's the job of the PARENTS. If they did their job we wouldn't need so much education! Education starts at home and criminals never got any. It's not my responsibility to make sure they get more education. Why should teachers have that extra burden placed on them to have to teach little children right from wrong. They are taxed enough.

[pippermouse]

Those college students are PAYING THEIR TUITION - if they don't want to take it seriously - they don't have to. It's their money they are wasting! Criminals CAN take it seriously if they choose - they have NOTHING ELSE TO DO! It's easy to act like you have knowledge when the camera is on them! What a joke. I wonder how seriously they'll take their education when they get out. Even if they try to be productive...........but who wants to HIRE them - ex cons and murder's? I sure wouldn't.

[janem91]

Upthread, RandalDS wrote: "If we provided this kind of education (like any civilised nation should) for free to all students, including a comprehensive preschool program and free college education for anyone who wants one, the population in our prisons would drop like a rock."

It wouldn't help, any more than providing free education through 12th grade, and providing relatively low-cost education through public universities, helps now. The Bard president was right when he pointed out that for some people, it takes a situation as radical an incarceration to make them wake up to the importance of learning.

Meanwhile, go to www.rateyourstudents.com and read how students in the free world actually treat their professors. Read how seriously they take *their* education. If these rude, stupid kids were just a minority, that site wouldn't exist--there'd be no reason for it. But it exists and gets multiple posts every day because so many professors all across the country are having the same experiences with the current crop of undergrads.

After reading that site's archives over a couple of days, it was refreshing to watch 60 Minutes and see students who no longer take education for granted.

[pippermouse]

cg4582 - you are the poster child for all the losers of this world. I'd be interested in how many tax paying relatives they have. Most criminals are from generations of public assistance. They are paying for their crimes?? How do you figure that?? I guess sitting on the internet and writing love letters to the crazy women who write to them and having acess to a gym to build themselves up and the list goes on and on and on.........they aren't paying a DIME for their crimes. They are where they belong and they'll NEVER EVER pay for what they have done to the victims!!! Chew on THAT!

[toldyouso21]

Could the federal government--not NY state, but federal--legislate on this if it wanted to? To protect the law-abiding citizen, who has to pay for college, could/should it forbid a private university from using its funds in this way? Posted by onthefence1 at 04:34 PM : Apr 16, 2007

Bard and any other college has the right and autonomy to dispense education as they see fit to those who enroll. Unfortunately, this is like the Imus debacle and requires if people are against this idea--then they vote with their choices. If Bard were to lose a good portion of their present student population (through boycotts or transfer outs in protest) they would be hard pressed to be able to afford to continue such a program. The Federal government cannot interfere with a learning institution in deciding who they can teach, They can only limit how public funds (grants, loans) are used but not what subjects or who is taught. There is discrimination here. Aside from a protest or boycott of the school, there is not much that can be done. Maybe a person could sue Bard for preferential treatment or discrimination, after all, they are favoring criminals above everyone else and giving them very special treatment.

[onthefence1]

PART 2 OF TWO-PART POST:
...Actually, speaking of Princeton, a few years ago, they did away with student loans completely, and started giving free educations to all admitted students who otherwise qualified for--and would have had to pay back--a loan. A few other wealthy colleges followed suit, I believe. I don't really see how the federal government could tell a college like that, if it wanted to, that it couldn't ALSO give free education to prison inmates, so it would seem that blanket legislation forbidding the kind of thing Bard is doing probably wouldn't work in all cases, even if it were permissible.

At any rate, does anyone here know the answer? My guess is, any dedicated Congressman could make a push for this kind of legislation, but only a Constitution-based argument could trump the right of private schools to do whatever they want with their money (e.g., private schools can't discriminate based on race, any more than public schools can).

[onthefence1]

PART 1 OF TWO-PART POST:
Toldyouso, you seem very educated about the issues here. Question for you (and/or anyone else who wants to weigh in): Could the federal government--not NY state, but federal--legislate on this if it wanted to? To protect the law-abiding citizen, who has to pay for college, could/should it forbid a private university from using its funds in this way? Or could the fed gov't mandate that Bard (or like-minded programs) admit these kids on loans they have to pay back, or perhaps that for every "free" education the school shells out for an inmate, it must give 1 or more "free" educations to non-inmates?

I, too, see a problem with the latter approach, because there really are no "free" educations, are there? Set aside the fact that the prisoners while their time away in school when they could be working; I'm just talking about from the college's perspective here. The professors have to be paid. The books have to be bought. The University has to fund its programs. Unless the alumni or other private endowment is mindblowingly huge, like it is at Princeton or Harvard, then this money has to be coming from someplace--whether from paying students' tuitions, or possibly from state or federal government (in which case I'm pretty sure that, yes, those governments could weigh in on how the University, in turn, chooses to spend its money).

[bigdaddy0772]

As an educator, I see nothing wrong with the Bard program. I believe it is a society's responsibility to make sure those who have been incarcerated are equipped with the skills necessary to rejoin the world, or else that same society may fall prey to the same individual again. Jail should be more that 3 hots and a cot. It should be a structured environment with time alloted for work, education and a skills course that teaches responisibility, respect and other life skills needed for a prisioner to become useful to the world they may one day reenter.

[toldyouso21]

Maybe if this was a new story--we all should just sit back and give it a chance. But it isn't. Until the 1990s, most prisons offered college and vocational courses. It did little to nothing to stop the recidivistic rate--this is because even armed with a degree, many people could not get hired due to their prison record or if hired; could not maintain a job due to their inability to respond correctly in the workplace. (threatening to kill a boss who will not get off your back is NOT an option). Many ex cons found out that no matter what degree they held, people would not hire them. They often joined not for profit organizations specifically set up to help people transition from prisons. That sounds great until you remember that they only need and can only pay for so many employees. With the rest of the country not wanting anything to do with them--and the NFP being full up--what do the newly educated ex cons do? They usually do a crime and go back to prison, that's what. And you can rant about society, but the fact is--ordinary people do NOT want to associate or be around criminals--being that for many it is a mindset as well as an act--and old habits die hard.

[toldyouso21]

College for the majority of people who enter it--is a waste. Not because the subjects are bad, but due to the drop out rate and the fact that it is a business. Students are allowed to major in art or philosophy, or anthropology or other *** when everyone knows their chances of finding a job in their field is very limited unless a teacher somewhere retires. The fact is, many people who go to college never end up working in their field and a majority of people who go to college quit before they can get a degree. Now add to the mix a felon. Years ago, when Jail house lawyers and educating felons were the rage, their were stories written about the irony of many NOT being able to get jobs. guess all of you new 'idealists' missed all those articles. The fact is, major in philosophy or one of the other fluff majors--and the chances of getting a job in their field are about as good as it is for none criminals---virtually NIL. There are quite a few professions that already have a glut and competition for jobs are global (like computer technology) now...imagine the newly graduated and released ex con NOT being able to get a job due to his record. What then? Or did you NOT think that far ahead? I know a LOT of ex cons. Most of my old, childhood neighborhood and many of the people I went to highschool with are either in prison, just out of prison or dead. Some got degrees in prison. They are dead or back in there. A few are still out. very few.

[toldyouso21]

Didn't the broadcast clearly state that no taxpayer money is used for this program? How is this NOT a win/win situation?? Posted by bstill4 at 03:16 PM : Apr 16, 2007

The money has to come from somewhere...like the increase in tuition of all the students who are NOT in prison at Bard. Their families will have to pay more for education. If these people are influential or in retail or even wholesale, they will increase their prices to offset the new costs for them and their family, or.. they will apply for more loans or grants to help defray costs, this will then affect the tax payer as all defered loans and grants are ultimately financed by the tax payer. Also, as has been said many times--college in and of itself will not decrease the prison population. In the 1960s, 1970s and 1980s most prisons had college programs for prisoners. it did little to NOTHING to reverse the flow of recidivism nor did most who enter, finish.

[bstill4]

Didn't the broadcast clearly state that no taxpayer money is used for this program? How is this NOT a win/win situation?? It has been proven over and over that most people come out of prison in worse shape (morally, at least) than they went in. These people, when and if they are released, will be educated and much more likely to be assets to society rather than recidivists.

I only have a bachelors degree, but if I were qualified, I would love to teach inmates. I see only good coming out of this program and others like it.