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January 13, 2013 7:47 PM

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How affirmative action divides two justices

Topics: Overtime Original

Why compare two Supreme Court justices in this week's Overtime video? Because Sonia Sotomayor and Clarence Thomas are the two justices who "benefited" from affirmative action -- they both went to Yale Law School in the 1970s when an aggressive affirmative action policy was in place -- and they have both spoken candidly on 60 Minutes (her, this week; him, in 2007) about the role that affirmative action played in their lives. The trouble is: they couldn't disagree more.

"He resents affirmative action. She embraces affirmative action," says 60 Minutes producer Henry Schuster. "These two people who should have so much in common suddenly become the yin and yang of this experience."

And here's why it matters that the two minority justices are at odds: Affirmative action in higher education is hanging in the balance, as we await a decision on Fisher vs. University of Texas. 60 Minutes legal analyst Andrew Cohen visits Overtime this week to tell us more.

Watch the above video and weigh in with a comment.

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by girlfeliz January 23, 2013 12:43 AM EST

Thomas explains that Affirmative Action taints ALL educated blacks. Unfortunately, like Sotomayor, he doesn't explain how this government policy greatly slows black educational/economic progress (see Richard Sanders' Wall Street article). In short, AA has good intentions but it gives blacks (and Latinos) a quick route to 1) being college drop-outs or getting unmarketable degrees, and 2) earning insufficient incomes to pay student loans, maintain good credit, or buy a house and raise a family. Maybe the Supreme Court will end this injustice by ruling against AA in June. If not, when the economy improves, black and Latino students will continue to be handicapped by AA. I'm a black, Spanish-speaking, female graduate of a Tier 1 law school. I don't doubt Sotomayor's intelligence. However, like many other highly ambitious minorities I know, Sotomayor ignores the detrimental effects of AA on the majority of black, Latino, and Native American college students. Without AA, Sotomayor might not have achieved her goal to become a Supreme Court Justice. However, without AA, more (probably millions more) minorities would have become college graduates and achieved economic self-sufficiency. Essentially, Sotomayor represents the selfish, wealthy, black SLAVEOWNERS who financially supported the Confederacy. Conversely, Thomas represents the great, black abolitionist Frederick Douglass who championed the socio-economic progress of ALL black people.

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by piBen11 January 26, 2013 1:53 PM EST: No, girlfeliz, you are totally wrong. You may feel that way about AA because like Thomas,you lack confidence in yourself in spite of your Law degree. You like him rely on the opinions of others to feel accomplished. Like Thomas, you are misinterpreting or have a wrong understanding of the AA program. Any student admitted into a University via the AA program is not successful because of the program, the student is successful only because such a student worked very hard to make it on his/her own. That may entail taking advantage of some resources available to weak students in the institution, but AA does not help determine the grade earned by such student. I hold Phd. degree in finance from Texas Tech University, and I was the first African American to be admitted into the finance program at TTU. My eventual success through the program had nothing to do with AA, even if my admission into the program might have something to do with AA. In fact, after my graduation from MBA at GVSU in Michigan, I received an invitation card from the University of Michigan for further studies but I moved to TTU for my Phd. If I had honored the invitation from the University of Michigan, my eventual success in the program would have been dependent solely on my efforts in meeting the various requirements for the Phd degree at the University of Michigan and would have nothing to do with my AA association.
Thomas like you thinks that your degrees are tainted or less than others because of the consideration of AA in your admissions, which is wrong and fickle minded. The truth is that you earned your degrees fair and square by working your you-know-what to earn them. Sonia like me understands that fact and does not let anybody tell her otherwise. You should emulate that great woman of color.


by Giawulf January 29, 2013 8:27 AM EST: I think Sotomayor said it best herself, that she is the "very best" AA has to offer. The vast majority of Affirmative Action beneficiaries will not achieve the success she did, especially in this economy. Though there was once a purpose for it, Affirmative Action has now become nothing more than a tool of hate and discrimination. PiBen11 seems to be very misguided in this though, as he/she believes that attaining a degree based on your ethnicity is the same as one attained on hard work. The more we talk about the race, the worse the problems of racism become. Even in this video they refe to Justices Sotomayor and Thomas as "people of color". Bigotry is not exclusively white people, and don't ever forget that.


by PancakeSorting January 22, 2013 2:41 AM EST: I actually think some of the most interesting opinions concerning affirmative action are those of Asians. Why? Whites *generally* dislike affirmative action, which is predictable, seeing as they don't benefit from it and whites aren't a minority. Similarly, blacks and Latinos, etc *generally* support affirmative action, seeing as they benefit from it, in terms of admissions. Very predictable. However, Asians are a minority group that actually often SUFFERS from affirmative action, yet they still support affirmative action more than whites. The literature on the subject is quite interesting.

Oh et al. (2010) conducted a study testing the effect that group self-interest and racism beliefs had on attitudes towards affirmative action. They did this by conducting a survey, which measured beliefs about racism and affirmative action. Interestingly, Oh et al found that although whites predictably supported affirmative action less than minorities, Asians also supported affirmative action much more than whites did. This is unexpected, since affirmative action arguably benefits Asians the least in this context. For instance, considering applicants to medical school with a mean MCAT of 30-32 and a mean GPA of 3.20-3.39, Asians with these scores had a 30.9% acceptance rate, as compared to the 82.8% acceptance rate and 40.7% acceptance rate of blacks and whites to medical school with the same scores, respectively (See "MCAT and GPA Grid for Asian Applicants and Acceptees to U.S. Medical Schools, 2009-2011," if you're interested).

So Oh et al.'s results suggest that awareness of factors such as institutional discrimination, blatant racism, and white privilege in the United States is the strongest mediator of whether an individual endorses affirmative action. Thus, awareness of racism in the United States is an important mediator of beliefs about affirmative action, even more so than race.

As a side note, affirmative action works against Asians because they often have higher test scores, GPA, etc than any other minority (or whites). So if there was no affirmative action, whites could feasibly become the minority in some schools, particularly those in cities with a dense Asian population and highly competitive admissions. I do wonder if whites would change their minds about affirmative action if they were allowed to become the minority in highly competitive professions.

Personally, (and I'm white) I think there is no easy answer regarding affirmative action. I think diversity is desirable (I know my college experience would have been decidedly less engaging without the vast diversity I was exposed to- both ethnic and socioeconomic diversity) but I do have some misgivings about Americans' competitiveness in the global markets with a system like affirmative action. In many other countries, race does not play a role in admissions/hiring/whatnot and thus ability alone determines success. Will Americans be less competitive than our global counterparts due to affirmative action?

If we are, is the solution getting rid of affirmative action and allowing the most competitive applicants/workers to dominate?

It's not a simple problem, to say the least. There will have to be a tradeoff- either diversity or competitiveness. Which one is "right" is a matter of opinion.; Reply to this comment


by Earthie48 January 20, 2013 3:27 PM EST: Justice Sonia Sotomayor, explains it best, the FACT that she was at the TOP of her Class, motivated the College to accept her, I am positive very little Affirmative Action had to do with it, unless they would NOT have accepted her; but she was MORE than qualifed to go to any top University!

Truth is, Fact is, RACISM is still very much, Alive and Well in these United States of America; its sad that one cannot be based on their Intellect and Skills! NO ONE wants to be based on a QUOTA, everyone wants to be accepted based on their Intellect, skills, Talent, and Character!; Reply to this comment

by ugacrew January 16, 2013 10:38 AM EST

Black people, the fate of equal opportunity as it pertains to educational opportunities in this nation do not rest with this US Supreme Court. It rests with your realization that you hold the power in your hands. It rests in your realization that it is your talent, most often visible on their athletic fields, that fuels their educational power houses. It rests with your realization, that by providing your talents on their athletic fields you are enabling them to sell millions of dollars worth of sponsorships to radios and television stations all over the world, and those sponsorships fuels the wealth of their institutions, that subsequently resort to "exclusionary" practices, the affect of which is inequitable admissions policies that result in the exclusion of your children. Consider that admitting the children of wealthy donors, is not considered "affirmative action." Consider that readily admitting children of alumni is not considered "affirmative action." AAffirmative action" only becomes an issue of legality when it involves the admissions of people of color.

If you would come to this realization, and realize that if you opted to dedicate yourselves to attending historically Black institutions, you would thus empower them to garner millions through the sell of sponsorships. You would empower them to hire the most qualified and best of professors. You would empower them to expand their campuses. You would empower them to hold the reins of "decisionmaking" that could readily provide your children with the opportunities so often denied them today, under the guise of "illegal affirmative action."

Affirmative action need not be an issue. Read and study about the National League of Colored Baseball players who established themselves as a powerhouse. They were not admitted into regular baseball because people cared about them, nor were they admitted because it was the right thing to do. They were admitted because they established themselves as a moneymaking tool and others sought them because of their ability to draw the crowds.

What we need is a Black athlete, i.e. first round draft pick to be the Rosa Parks for Black colleges and universities that asks other equally talented and recruited Black athletes to take a firm stand and make a firm commitment to attend and support a historically Black educational institution. It only takes one. A tall oak tree begins as an acorn.
You need not begg these so called "elite" institutions to prohibit discrimination. You need not beg them to provide your children with equal opportunities. You have enough Beounces and Jay-Zees and Oprah Winfreys and Tyler Perrys and Puf Daddys and Rapping Nellies and this list ges on, to stand up for your children and stand firm.

Realize that people may discriminate, but God does not. He may not have given Africa ample wheat supplies, but he compensated by giving them diamonds to trade for that wheat. He may not have given the middle east wheat and other food staples, but he compensated by giving them fuel, one of our major necessities.

Let this court as well as these institutions argue against what is right under the Law of God, but then utilize the talents that God gave you and leave that debate in the wind. You don't need permission. You only need "realization" of the power that lies within you.

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by bombones February 2, 2013 12:26 AM EST: What a self righteous, patronizing, bloviating idiot.


by GOP-R--Con-Men January 16, 2013 9:39 AM EST: gruven13777100, I'll ask you again. Women and minorities were qualified prior to affirmation action. So explain why qualified women and minorities were never hired, appointed before affirmative action? What explains that other than sexism and/or racism? You're so vocal about this so it should be easy for you to answer.; Reply to this comment

by bd7718 January 16, 2013 4:48 AM EST

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. hoped to live to see an America where his children would be judged "not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character,"

I want to see that dream come true, however it will never come to fruition so long as Affirmative Action requires our very system to judge one another based on the color of our skin.

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by achememnon January 16, 2013 10:14 AM EST: And it will not come forward when those that are racist against minorities become truthful with their hatred and try to change their ignorance.


by toddclemmer January 26, 2013 11:22 AM EST: Micheal King had an specific appetite for white hookers. Why do you think his FBI records are sealed well past the life expectancy of his widow?

by bd7718 January 16, 2013 2:00 AM EST

Why is this automatically a WHITE VS EVERYONE ELSE issue? - It's not.

I'll let you in on a little secret, the vast majority of "Whites males" do not sleep on a pile of gold at night. We struggle for every dime we earn (the same as everyone else), and have no connections or secret hand shakes that open up magic doors of opportunity for us.

If you have a problem with the social elite, that's a whole different issue altogether. "The GOOD OLD BOYS" come in all nationalities and genders, and they look down on ALL of us, no matter what chromosome or skin color we are.

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by achememnon January 16, 2013 10:16 AM EST: As a black person who have intimate friendships with white men I know that to be true. The problem as I see the most is with the wealthy in this country hoarding all the money and robbing the regular citizens of opportunities. They use this subject as a way to divide and conquer us as a people.


by ugacrew January 16, 2013 10:37 AM EST: Dear White Male,

You do not know your history.


by toddclemmer January 26, 2013 11:24 AM EST: "with the wealthy in this country hoarding all the money and robbing the regular citizens of opportunities"

Examples?


by geckstei January 16, 2013 1:40 AM EST: The indisputable fact is that affirmative action plays a small fraction in the profiling/admissions process when stacked with references and any other measure of academic achievement. Race started when a specific demographic institutionalized oppressive laws that discriminated against another group. As a result one group started the race w/ an advantage and then abolitionism and civil rights happen and so the other group played catch-up. The question is how successful as affirmative action been? And if so what rubric do we use to measure?; Reply to this comment

by ronjula-2012 January 15, 2013 11:53 PM EST

clarence thomas you should be back in your home town picking cotton, and saying yesaa mr. john, what else do you wnat me to do. you boy are a disgrace, and unappreciative human, no you are not human, you are a mule.

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by January 19, 2013 1:28 PM EST: damn straight...once a cotton picker always a cotton picker. why do we try to boost these low IQ people into jobs where thinking is required? Promote the stupid and become a stupid and dysfunctional society.


by toddclemmer January 26, 2013 11:26 AM EST: **** boomer.


by Ulgnud January 15, 2013 11:33 PM EST: Anyone who gets placed on an affirmative action quota means someone who rightfully earned that place was discriminated against because of race or gender, in violation of the laws forbidding discrimination. Thus the crime of affirmative action is revealed.; Reply to this comment

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