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Econwatch
February 3, 2010 9:41 AM

Apple's Wozniak: Toyota Has Software Problem

By
Daniel Carty
Topics
Toyota
(James Martin/CNET)
Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak said Toyota's problems go beyond faulty gas pedals and involve bad software.

As first reported by CNET, Wozniak told an audience at Discovery Forum 2010 Monday:

"Toyota has this accelerator problem we've all heard about," Wozniak said. "Well, I have many models of Prius that got recalled, but I have a new model that didn't get recalled. This new model has an accelerator that goes wild, but only under certain conditions of cruise control. And I can repeat it over and over and over again--safely."

"This is software. It's not a bad accelerator pedal. It's very scary, but luckily for me, I can hit the brakes," he said.

Wozniak further addressed his concerns over faulty software in an ABC interview Tuesday:

"I tap the cruise control lever to increase the speed and it basically goes into an unlimited speed up," said Wozniak. "If I hit the brake it disables my cruise control and it goes back to normal."

"But since my foot never touches the pedal," he continued, "[the problem] cannot be a sticky accelerator pedal. … There might be some bad software in there."

Wozniak said he has been trying to contact officials at Toyota and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration for months with little luck.

A Toyota spokesman said it investigates all complaints.

"We're in the business of investigating complaints, assessing problems and finding remedies," said John Hanson, national manager environmental safety and quality communications at the automaker. "After many years of exhaustive testing, we have not found any evidence of an electronic [software] problem that would have led to unwanted acceleration."

The automaker has recalled nearly 4.5 million vehicles worldwide to repair so-called "sticky gas pedals." The company announced Monday that new parts are en route to dealerships and repairs should begin as soon as possible.

Adding to Toyota's woes, there have been more than 100 complaints in the U.S. and Japan about the brakes of the Prius hybrid.

Read more about the Toyota recall at CBSNews.com:

LaHood: Toyota Resisted Safety Fix
Analyst: Recall Costs Toyota $155M a Week
Does Toyota's Problem Go Beyond Pedals?
Toyota: New Pedal Parts on Way to Dealers
Government OKs Toyota Gas Pedal Fix


Add a Comment See all 32 Comments
by billy3700 February 3, 2010 5:01 PM EST
Toyota car owners are mad and they don?t want promises for adjusted accelerator pedals or new brakes, they want answers
in addition to their cars being fixed and they want it all now.
Already in hot water over what they knew and when,Toyota better step up and deal with the issues at hand,we are not talking toy cars here!
Check out this article and keep up to date with the latest news and like I did!
http://ketiva.com/Cars_and_Transportation/toyotas_troubles_now_affecting_stopping_as_well_as_moving_forward.html
Reply to this comment
by billy3700 February 3, 2010 5:00 PM EST
Toyota car owners are mad and they don?t want promises for adjusted accelerator pedals or new brakes, they want answers
in addition to their cars being fixed and they want it all now.
Already in hot water over what they knew and when,Toyota better step up and deal with the issues at hand,we are not talking toy cars here!
Check out this article and keep up to date with the latest news and like I did!
<a href="http://ketiva.com/Cars_and_Transportation/toyotas_troubles_now_affecting_stopping_as_well_as_moving_forward.html">http://ketiva.com/Cars_and_Transportation/toyotas_troubles_now_affecting_stopping_as_well_as_moving_forward.html</a>
Reply to this comment
by Empire-George- February 3, 2010 4:57 PM EST
by actornaught February 3, 2010 12:29 PM EST

I'm not convinced. Doesn't the cruise control actually move the accelerator pedal, or perhaps other linkage above it? I've seen the pedals actually move as the CC adjusts the throttle.
____________

This is true, good point.....when using the cruise control, the pedal does actually go down, without your foot, as it accelerates....so this could still be related to the pedal problem, and the Apple guy didn't really think it out very well.....he didn't hit the pedal, but the cruise control did and maybe the pedal didn't release or slow when you released the C.C. button.
Reply to this comment
by bobnjersey February 3, 2010 6:27 PM EST
[This is true, good point.....when using the cruise control, the pedal does actually go down, without your foot, as it accelerates....so this could still be related to the pedal problem, and the Apple guy didn't really think it out very well.....he didn't hit the pedal, but the cruise control did and maybe the pedal didn't release or slow when you released the C.C. button. ]

not sure what kind of car you have ... but current cc's do not move the pedal ... there's either a servo in the engine compartment that engages the mechanism for acceleration seperately ... or it sends a signal to the fuel injector module to control it.

in the end woz is going to be right ... it's going to be the software embedded in one of the 'control modules' that control the fuel injectors ... and it's going to cost billions to fix.
by Robin081564 February 3, 2010 3:36 PM EST
I am a software developer and I work for an Auto Parts retailer. So, I can offer a unique perspective. Although, being a software guy, I am normally inclined to blame the hardware, I have to say that, it is very easy to see how this could be a software problem. If I were troubleshooting this problem there are a few questions I would have to ask:

1. Is the part that is suspected as the cause of this failure used in other vehicles. (working in my business, I am acutely aware of the fact that more often than not, they are)

2. If the part is used in other vehicles, (possibly made by other vehicle manufacturers) are they experiencing the same sort of failures? If not, then I would have to ask why not?

3. Is the software used in the vehicles that are known to be experiencing problems the same or using similar components?

4. Is it possible that there is more than 1 possible cause for the same type of symptom.. (more than likely the answer is yes).

The main thing to keep in mind here is that the software is the most likely thing to be completely proprietary to these particulart Toyota models. The accelerator hardware, even if it is not the identical parts, is likely to be utilizing a design that is common across many vehicles that are functioning just fine.

I have experienced the same sort of auto acceleration with the cruise control. However, that is what we software developers call "by design" and it is not seen as a bug. When you click on the "accelerate" button the sofware assumes that it is to accelerate the vehicle until you either tell it to stop or press the brake. But what if under certain conditions, pressing the brake does not tell the software to stop acceleration? This could easily happen as a result of either an unsatisfied variable condition (software) or the failure of whatever switch mechanism (hardware) tells the computer that the brake has been pressed.

Think about it... it is not rocket science.
Reply to this comment
by jwesel1 February 3, 2010 5:41 PM EST
When you hit the accelerate button/lever on cruise control and release, it increases the speed by 2 mph and then stops accelerating. The only way it will keep on accelerating is if you don't release the accelerate button/lever
by Robin081564 February 4, 2010 9:14 AM EST
jwsel1, that may be the expected behavior. However, it is easy to see how a failure in the electronics... ie: a fauty switch, wiring or other hardware component, or a software bug could result in the computer being told that your finger is still depressing the button even after you have released it.
by wdrussell1 February 3, 2010 2:54 PM EST
One thing you can count on. The crazies from hate radio will always be crazy.


***Hedgecock conspiracy: Obama conducts "jihad against Toyota" to provide "boon to Government Motors"***
Reply to this comment
by eddom949 February 3, 2010 2:40 PM EST
CanisLupus - you shouldn't have been soiling the cars with your emanations. Taurus is full-size, by the way, class F at Hertz.
Reply to this comment
by canislupus16 February 3, 2010 4:41 PM EST
***? you're too funny, eddom.

btw, thank you for reinforcing my point. A Taurus is a "full size" today. Although I figured they would be classed supersized luxury in 2010 parlance. Wait two years and a Focus will be the new "full-sized". My point is, the rental companies keep classifying smaller cars bigger. Taurus-size cars used to be "mid size." Thanks also for checking Hertz' website for all of us, we now know what an F class, full size car really is. In 2010.
by eddom949 February 3, 2010 5:19 PM EST
Thank you, and try that X class if you get the chance.
by canislupus16 February 3, 2010 2:14 PM EST
This probably has nothing to do with anything but since Woz and others have been commenting about software and computers it reminded me.

Throughout '90s I was doing a lot of road work, i.e., business travel by car. Almost always rented a Ford Taurus or Mercury Sable or comparable car, when "mid size" actually meant something.

I spent many hours on a mobile phone when I was on the road, multi-tasking the hours away. Back then, you either had a phone that was hard-wired installed in your own car, or a "bag" phone that was portable, if you can call it that, that plugged into the cigarette lighter for direct power to save/charge the battery that was integral to the phone. I actually went through three of these, along with a couple of installed car phones. Anybody born after about 1980 has no clue what I'm talking about. And doesn't want to know either.

For you kids out there, these bag phones were real contraptions compared with today's cell phones, all tolled they were about the size of two bricks, and weighed about as much - a full land-line sized telephone handset, a coiled wire to the base - no joke, a backup battery the size of a small car battery, a "short" antenna attached to the base - like about 9 inches long that flipped up, and the base would get hotter than h*ll if you talked for any length of time, which I did. I mean this thing could start a fire from heat alone.

To get better reception, I'd sit the bag phone under the windshield on the dash pretty much directly in front of me. Strange things used to happen with the acceleration of the car when I did this, which was particularly noticeable in cruise mode. Sometimes the car would rapidly accelerate or alternately decelerate, although this was unpredictable and inconsistent. This was on level interstate highways. Occasionally the engine would race up in RPMs to the point where I'd have to brake, whereas other times the engine seemed to be trying to find the right speed, moving up and down before becoming constant. I'm making a distinction between normal minor fluctuations in cruise control operation and what I had experienced.

Quite obviously, even then, there was a good deal of computer control over a vehicle's engine speed, acceleration, etc., because it could only have been the radio frequency or emissions or reception of the mobile phone that affected something - namely one of the car's computers, that could have caused this, or at least that was my conclusion at the time, and still is.

As I finished writing this, something occurred to me. I wonder if the inconsistent behavior of this phenomenon could have been related to distance from or proximity to cell towers when the phone was in use, i.e., due to frequency strength ramp-ups. Could it be plausible that today's miniature versions of cell technology result in the same behavior in auto computers more sensitive or susceptible to the problem, in this case Toyota's? And that inconsistency of the behavior could be related to cell frequency/intensity?

Any engineers out there or others who have experienced this care to comment?
Reply to this comment
by Skruffy1 February 3, 2010 3:17 PM EST
Canis, good comment. (Yep, I remember bag-phones.) Though we don't yet know what the problem is, what you say makes sense. We are putting microprocessors into more and more stuff, and we are at the same time using more and more RF-emitting gadgets. Stands to reason, that in this RF-saturated environment we're creating, there COULD be RF (electromagnetic radiation) getting into and interfering with stuff. Who's to say that stray RF couldn't cause a car's cruise control to engage and go into accelerate mode? If that turns out to be a factor, we'll be seeing better shielding of sensitive electronics in vehicles.
by fer60us February 3, 2010 6:25 PM EST
Years ago (in Mexico) while I was at a gas station getting gas for my GM pickup truck I went inside the store and lock the doors with the keyless and put the alarm. When I came back and tried to open it, I couldn't. When using the key the alarm would go off. After several tries I could unlock the doors using the keyless but then the alarm went off and the switch wouldn't work. After almost an hour of struggling with this issue a guy working there told me "if you move the pick up truck just 10' ahead it would start". I said, what? He replied, there is a cell phone tower just there on the roof of the store and this has happened before. He helped me to push the truck and bingo, the ignition worked. It was kind of funky but yes, RF could affect electronics, incluing electronic acceleration systems.
by fctex February 3, 2010 2:07 PM EST
has this guy ever been under a hood? cruise controls tie into the same linkage as the gas pedal, so the issue might be the same in either case. there are two problems here - one, somebody that thinks he knows everything and two the media for publishing this tripe becasue they think he knows everything.
Reply to this comment
by boatdocster February 3, 2010 3:10 PM EST
If the Prius has an electronically controlled acceleration circuit (I.E. a positional control servo at the gas pedal that turns mechanical action in to an electric signal), then Wozmiak's comments about tapping the "speed up" function and triggering uncontrolled acceleration could be very accurate - the car speeds up from an electric signal regardless of where it comes from.

Any software issue that sends "Too Many GO" signals in relationship to the drivers input would cause uncontrolled acceleration. In a modern car, too many "GO" signals would increase fuel delivery via the fuel injectors and open the throttle body to allow extra air to enter. Remember that today's cars sense the exhaust gas ratios and work to keep fuel and air properly mixed to reduce emissions. If a software glitch is dumping extra fuel in the engine, it would run rich; the car's computer would sense this and then add air to lean out the mixture to the correct level. And away the Prius goes!!!

Almost all cars use electrical servo's to regulate the cruise control functions - the opening or closing of the fuel delivery system. In a vehicle with a mechanical linkage, you can see the gas pedal move while speeding up or slowing down a vehicle via the cruise buttons (quite common in older cars with carburetors).

Since the Toyota does not have a mechanical linkage, I'd bet the pedal does nothing when speeding up or slowing down via the cruise function. You simply get to watch the road go by faster and faster.
by eddom949 February 3, 2010 1:33 PM EST
Steve, meet Toyota... Dr. Toyota.
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by stupa3 February 3, 2010 1:27 PM EST
U r Right Steve! way to go!
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