March 25, 2011 11:52 AM

ATF gunwalking: Who knew, and how high up?

By
Sharyl Attkisson
Topics
Law and Order

by CBS News investigative correspondent Sharyl Attkisson

Since our first report in which ATF agents told us they allowed thousands of weapons to cross into Mexico, one crucial question has been: Who knew -- how high up? This week for the first time, President Obama addressed the controversy. It was in an interview Tuesday evening with the Spanish language network Univision.

Watch: Obama on "gunwalking"

"Well first of all I did not authorize it. Eric Holder the Attorney General did not authorize it. He's been very clear that our policy is to catch gun runners and put 'em into jail," Mr. Obama said of the controversial ATF operation called "Fast and Furious."

"You were not even informed about it?" asked Univision reporter Jorge Ramos.

"Absolutely not," said Mr. Obama. "There may be a situation here which a serious mistake was made and if that's the case then we'll find out and well hold somebody accountable."

But who? In an exclusive interview with CBS News, the lead ATF official in Mexico at the time Darren Gil says somebody in the Justice Department did know about the case. Gil says his supervisor at ATF's Washington D.C. headquarters told him point-blank the operation was approved even higher than ATF Director Kenneth Melson.

Gunrunning scandal uncovered at the ATF

"Is the director aware of this," Gil asked the supervisor. Gil says his supervisor answered "Yes, the director's aware of it. Not only is the director aware of it, D.O.J.'s aware of it... Department of Justice was aware of it."

Gil goes on to say senior Justice official Lanny Breuer and several of his deputies visited Mexico amid the controversy last summer, and spoke to ATF staff generally about a big trafficking case that they claimed was "getting good results." Gil says Melson, ATF's Acting Director, also visited Mexico City. Gil's Deputy Attache and his Analyst questioned Melson about the case that surrounding all the weapons showing up in Mexico. "His response was 'it's a good case, it's still going on,'" recalls Gil, "and we'll close it down as soon as we possibly can."

AK47s vs. bean bags in border drug war

As to what Melson, Breuer and the other officials knew, Senator Charles Grassley (R-Iowa) has been asking.  Among other things, he has told the State Department to turn over notes and records from any Breuer visits to Mexico City in summer of 2010. But his repeated requests have so far been denied. And the officials mentioned would not speak with CBS News.

The whole controversy was exposed last month when ATF agent John Dodson and others blew the whistle to CBS News. They told us they were ordered to let assault rifles and other weapons "walk" into the hands of Mexican drug cartels in a failed attempt to take down a cartel.

Agent: I was ordered to let U.S. guns into Mexico

But if Justice Department officials knew, it's even more incredible when you find out who didn't: ATF's own agents in Mexico.

Gil first found out something was amiss in early 2010 when serial numbers from a flood of guns used in cartel crimes were all tracing back to the same case in Phoenix: "Fast and Furious." But when Gil's analyst checked ATF's computer files to find out more, he hit a brick wall.

"Not only did he not have access, I as the attache, the head agent in Mexico for ATF operations, did not have access," says Gil. He was locked out.

That was a red flag because Gil says as the senior ATF official in Mexico, it was his job to approve any ATF operation involving Mexico; and he didn't approve this one.

In fact, Gil specifically emailed his staff on Jan. 25, 2010 that no firearms would be allowed to cross into Mexico for a case without his approval. The email also stated that if he ever approved such an operation, he'd make sure the weapons were "stopped on the Mexican side of the border." They'd never be allowed to "walk" or reach the streets.

Gil didn't know it but even as he wrote that email, ATF agents in Phoenix have told CBS News they were already letting traffickers move weapons to Mexican drug cartels without stopping them. The idea was apparently to see where the guns would end up and try to build a big case.

Faced with the flow of guns and the serial number evidence tracing to Phoenix, but locked out of the computer case files, Gil says he repeatedly questioned his supervisor in Washington. He says some of the conversations became screaming and shouting matches. He says he was instructed not to tell his Mexican counterparts about the case. Gil said he inquired, "when is this case gonna shut down? The Mexicans are gonna have a fit when they find out about it." Gil says he also noted "at some point, these guns are gonna end up killing either a government of Mexico official, a police officer or military folks, and then what are we gonna do?"

Gil is the second ATF agent to tell CBS News that he specifically warned of such an outcome. Agent John Dodson says he told his superiors in Phoenix much the same.

"I specifically asked one time, 'are you prepared to go to the funeral of a Border Patrol agent...are you prepared for that fact because it's only a matter of time before that happens," Dodson told CBS News.

That's exactly what happened. Two of the weapons, AK-47 variant assault rifles, were eventually found at the murder of Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry last December. Officials are looking into possible connections to the murder of Customs Agent Jaime Zapata in February.

Gil retired from ATF in December, in part over his objections to Fast and Furious and the way it was handled. He says he's speaking out because nobody else in charge has stepped up to explain that ATF agents in Mexico were never part of it. Yet they're now facing threats of prosecution from some Mexican politicians.

"The (Mexican) government's looking at (ATF agents) potentially bringing weapons into their country, which in many cases is an act of war." Gil says by not explaining that ATF agents in Mexico weren't part of Fast and Furious, ATF executives are putting the agents in danger. "They're leaving my guys out in Mexico alone, and they're not doing the right thing."


  • Sharyl Attkisson

    Sharyl Attkisson is a CBS News investigative correspondent based in Washington. All of her stories, videos and blogs are available here.

Add a Comment See all 34 Comments
by artsbrew March 29, 2011 7:59 PM EDT
This is a continuation of my previous comment because of the length.

Fourth, Obama replaced 2 members of the Supreme Court and the head of BATFE with very anti gun people. That is his right but to have the BAFTE try to skirt the legislature and outlaw guns and magazines without its approval is not right. I do not mind sending planes in to Libya for protection but it should have gone through congress first not the UN they have no jurisdiction over our country I hope!! Of course we were told we only were shelling targets from our ships. Of course when a plane crashes in Libya it is hard not to tell it is American. Now we are told England and France will take over for us in the bombings in the near future, lucky us. Sure is a lot of bad info out there, either by the media or the Presidents advisors, for some reason. I wonder what it might be?

Fifth, the crime rates are highest in the cities that restrict gun possession what does that tell you. New York and the surrounding states, DC, Chicago, California All though the rate drop there and DC slightly last year. After Florida made concealed carry legal in I think it was the late 80's people were getting robbed at rest stops. When they caught the people they were gang members and they told the police they targeted rental cars because they knew they would not have guns because they were from out of state.

Six, what the heck is wrong with America today. We use to be called the melting pot of the world, now we are trying to keep Mexicans out of our country. Are you going to pick our vegetables? I think not. Give the workers ID's and when pulled over it can be check with the data base which would make it harder to get fake ID. Every cop car has a computer. These are hard working honest people for the most part. Every major and mid sized cities are full of cartel people now. Do you think they get the drugs here and the money back magically? Put those people in jail then throw them out of the country and if they come back put them back in jail. That also goes for any nationality and race or religion. Lets face it religion has killed more people in the world in the name of religion then anything else, but I would not make anyone do what I think, I believe in individualism. If someone is going to wreck their life doing heroin no body is going to stop them not even in prison. What makes us think prohibition works? Don't we take history to keep from making the same mistakes do we? Adults should have the right to make mistakes that is why I left home. Do not legislate morality allow them to make mistakes because they will anyway. Do not try to put everyone in the same plastic mold, because individualism is what makes this country great. Allow all religions, personally I am not going to support a religion in the style they seem to have grown accustom to. Large amounts of money, seems strange to me considering Jesus had no possessions and told people to get rid of them. Living small would seem the proper way to make the world go round a little longer. Most religious people live in large houses and build big temples or what ever when the money would do more good distributed amongst the poor in the community. Keep the government small it is the most inefficient business there is to run. Being green means doing with less and locally, not buying an electric car that runs on coal, gas, or nuclear power. Where do you think electricity comes from and it also produces pollution some worse then others, but who is going to give up there lights and heat for the good of the world, even if we did the rest of the world would not.

Seven, just before this problem with the gun running the BATFE was trying to make high capacity shot guns illegal with out congresses approval, just as they did with the street sweeper. Saying there is no legitimate reason for using them. How about personal protection? Do we out law cars, cigarettes, alcohol because they kill a lot of people? I hope we take the problem people off the streets and make the community better but that will not happen until we make drugs, prostitution, and any other prohibition legal and control them and tax them at a reasonable rate lowering our taxes and even the size of government. If you tax cigarettes too much the mafia will supply them, it is just the same as prohibition isn't it? Let's quite making criminals out of most of the population and put the real criminals in jail. There are plenty of laws on the books to deal with it we do not need any more. Just because someone does not believe the same things as you, that does not make him a bad person. My nose better start after your fist ends.

Sorry for the rambling just getting a few things off my chest. Can't we all just get along?
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by artsbrew March 29, 2011 7:52 PM EDT
First things first: An assault weapon is an automatic weapon that is the definition of it. Now the weapons that were being bought look like assault weapons but are semi automatic. Drug cartels have all the money they need to buy automatic weapons for the higher ups in the organization so the idea of following the weapons up to the heads of the cartels is ridiculous.

Second, most of the media and the anti gun crowd jumped all over the false statistics provided by the antigun crowd who hardly ever give you footnotes so you can prove they are wrong. You want to prove the pro-gun crowd wrong, prove that the statistics worked up by John R Lott Who Wrote More Guns less Crime. Quite a statement, I would say. No one in the media covers stories, or very rarely do, about the number of people that are saved by guns and many more are not even reported. Third when they say militia means the National Guard, that statement is ridiculous. Find an old dictionary and it will explain it, probably none of the newer ones will, guns are being written out of our culture. There were no standing armies in the states at that time before we declared war with England. Maybe there was a constable or sheriff and if you were lucky a deputy. The militia was every able bodied man in the community was to show up when the alarm was sounded with the best weapon he could afford to protect the community as a whole. Now here is a real shocker the police have no responsibility to protect an individual and you can not sue them if they fail to do so. Response times if it is quick will be at the soonest 15 minutes and probably longer. They come in and clean the mess up and try to figure out who is the perpetrator. Their job most off the time is to make revenue off the mostly law abiding citizens, for minor infractions. Whose responsibility is it to protect you and yours? You!! You want to lay down and let the lions eat you that is your business but I myself am going to poke eyes out or what ever I can before going down. I have no problems with people wanting to lie down and be eaten just do not try and make me do the same. Just like in New Orleans they took the guns away from the honest citizens, but do you think the criminals gave up their guns. In a natural disaster there will be gangs roaming around trying to take advantage of the situation and that is where the militia comes in: people banding together to protect themselves from larger groups of criminals who by the constitutions 5 amendment have no responsibility to turn in their guns because that would be self incrimination.

Third, I have very hard time believing at least the head of BATFE, Justice Department, and a least someone the administration knew what was happening. Lower officials do not make those types of decisions. Then they cook up false statistics and will not foot note their data so it can not be checked, like the statement that 90% of the guns the cartels are using are coming from the US so we need more control. It is already illegal for a convicted criminal to own a gun! If someone would have charged the person responsible in AZ tragedy with death threats he would not have passed the background check. Limiting Magazine capacity or types of semi automatic guns will only hurt the person responsible for protecting the family. Why would you need more than 10 rounds? Well If you shoot 10 rounds and there are still bad people in your house you should be able to continue the defense while waiting for the police.
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by t44e6 March 29, 2011 8:28 AM EDT
This is but one example of the abuse of power in the ongoing effort to disarm the citizenry.
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by misterjake78 March 28, 2011 2:21 PM EDT
The truth is becoming more clear. Our current administration has used the 90% of guns used by cartels come from the US bogus claim for the past 2 years. According to wikileaks, only 15% of guns that are traceable came from the US, but the rest came from Vietnam, Latin America, Russia and China through the black market (crimals bypassing the law and using the black market...what a concept). However our government have been throwing the 90% number in our faces for a couple years. Now the truth comes out, not only were a fraction of the guns that could be traced came from the US, but the US knew about it and allowed them to walk. The more guns they allowed to go through the border, the more the administration could claim came from the US to ask for another bogus assault weapons ban similar to 1994. You create the panic then exploit it. Bravo! Can't blame Obama for all of this, if my memory is correct, this started under the Bush admin.

So, it's good to know the truth has finally leaked out, I'm ashamed of my government for lying to me. At least they are good at something.
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by Yankity March 28, 2011 11:35 AM EDT
Give O some credit - this is his attempt to get Mexico to secure THEIR border. He just cannot get blamed, I mean take credit for it.
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by wfw3536 March 27, 2011 7:36 PM EDT
If Holder and Napolitano did not know the guns we were sending to Mexico were killing innocent folks they are incompetent. If you know anything about these agencies, something this big did not just happen with some low level person making the decision. I am sure what will finally happen is they will throw some low level person under the bus to save their own jobs. Where is the leadership we were promised by this administration. Thank you CBS.
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by crazyname March 26, 2011 7:23 PM EDT
holder knew, he had to.
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by marlinrifle March 26, 2011 1:17 PM EDT
Again , Thank You CBS for keeping this story going !!!
I've not seen much on abc or nbc at all, fox started with agent Terrys murder back on 12/15/10 but the story never got much public attention there even though they followed up with several stories about " project gun walker" .
The atf and doj kept this thing going to show us what a great job they are doing . They wanted more pictures of a big cache of guns seized to justify asking for more $$$ to keep their programs going.
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by jpAcosta March 26, 2011 9:02 PM EDT
The story is being ignored, but in Mexico is in the frontpage since it appeared a week or so ago. It is a real major thing that shows something really smells bad inside the gov.
by marlinrifle March 27, 2011 1:29 PM EDT
After agent Terrys murder , both the atf and doj blocked any answers to questions about project gun walker . They are still not forthcomming with answers . Thanks to CBS this story is finally getting a little attention.
I hope that the fools that let this go get railroaded , the gun dealers that were told by the atf to ok the purchases even after they called to question them , are not held liable.
by Imleavinuluvit March 25, 2011 11:58 PM EDT
There's something disturbingly wrong with this Administration! I supported Obama, voted for him, and really thought he might be able to reinvigorate this nation. I was wrong. But my antennae didn't really go up until the BP Gulf Oil Spill Crisis! It became apparent to me then that someone else was calling the shots. British Petroleum just did what they damn well pleased, while the Obama Administration danced to the tune. Their unwillingness to seriously investigate the Wall Street and banking Meltdown borders on treason! This guy is a Wolf in Black Sheep's clothing. Then Egypt, and now Libya, honestly I can't think of one thing He's done that's been right. Throw in this ATF scandal and I really begin to wonder if this country has a future! Please keep up your excellent journalism Sharyl. I'm grateful somebody in this country is willing to tackle the tough stories that tell us who we are and where we're going. You've got a pretty Gutsy Little Editor to work with too. Has to give you some comfort on those dark days. Sincerely, Jeff Santen
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by mecanik-2009 March 25, 2011 10:23 PM EDT
Oh what a tangled web we weave.
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