Biden's qualified debate victory

CBS

This post originally appeared on Slate.

In the vice presidential debate, Joe Biden found a way to be both a participant and the guy in the Barcalounger at home yelling at the television. He interrupted Paul Ryan, moderator Martha Raddatz, and even himself with interjections, sighs, and quips. He appealed to the heavens, he looked to the floor. With all the activity, he surely shed calories. When he wasn't engaged in those antics, Biden laughed and smiled to himself as if Ryan had sold him something illegal that he'd just consumed. At times his treatment was so dismissive, he seemed only a few threads of restraint from reaching across the table and patting Ryan on the head.

Biden won the debate, but it was a qualified victory. He energized Democrats who had been down in the dumps since the president's supine performance, but he also energized Republicans who found him rude and dishonest. Swing voters might have been turned off, too. But it probably doesn't matter since they're going to vote for the top of the ticket. It was close in the post-debate polls. In a CBS poll of undecided voters, 50 percent thought Biden had won; only 31 percent thought the same of Ryan. In the CNN poll, 48 percent thought Ryan won. Only 44 percent thought Biden came out on top.

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Vice presidential debate analysis

There's an old line attributed to Bill Clinton: It's hard for the other guy to talk when your fist is in his mouth. Biden was up to his elbow. That thrilled Democrats. Speaking of himself, Barack Obama said that he was "too polite" in the first debate. No one will say that of Joe Biden.

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Biden's performance was aimed at one thing: painting the Romney and Ryan agenda as a flim-flam operation. He did it with style as much as substance. Looking directly at the camera, he said, "folks, follow your instincts," in the middle of an argument about whether Romney's tax plan added up. Before the debate, a Romney staffer had said one of the things that had worked well for the GOP nominee a week ago was that while voters may not have understood his policy ideas, he sounded like he understood them, which gave viewers confidence in the candidate. Biden was trying to make the same kind of transference. If he could convey exasperation and frustration with Ryan's lack of specificity, the plans that didn't add up, and the broader claims from the Republican team, perhaps he'd be able to make people doubt the entire Republican enterprise.

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Biden on Ryan's Libya comments: "That's a bunch of malarkey"

Biden hit the thesaurus hard. He blurted out that Ryan was offering "malarkey." At one point, he referred to a Ryan riff as "a bunch of stuff." He called out a "bizarre statement" and several times talked about "loose talk" and "slipshod" claims. (What? No hokum?)

The audience for the Biden routine was the middle class. As expected, Biden brought up the secretly recorded video tape in which Romney wrote off 47 percent of the country as dependents and moochers. "These people are my mom and dad--the people I grew up with, my neighbors," said Biden, at the start of an extended riff defending everyday middle-class Americans. Ryan responded with his own number, 10 percent, which is the unemployment rate in Scranton, Pa. He then blew that fact into a more extended argument about the lousy Obama economy. That argument then pivoted to a defense of Romney, which included a great story about how the Republican nominee paid the college bills of a man in his church whose children had been paralyzed in a car crash. The exchange was like much of the debate: Biden was defending the middle class, while Ryan was defending Romney.

Biden hammered Ryan's plan to change Medicare and pointed out that the next president would appoint justices to the Supreme Court that could limit abortion rights. On international affairs, though Biden floundered on Libya, he pressed Ryan on Iraq and Afghanistan, questioning effectively whether the logical conclusion of Romney's aggressive stance toward Iran and Afghanistan meant a deeper military commitment to conflict. "The last thing we need is another war," said Biden.

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[TJphoto]

Joe mopped the floor with Ryan, and now the Republicans are crying foul. Shocking!!!

[cnavydt]

Where to begin....First, the president went all over the country talking about fiscal responsibility, and how it begins at home. So, he orders that all federal employees pay be frozen for 2 years to save 5 billion and help pay down the deficit. That's all well and good, but the very next day he steps out to the podium and announces 5 billion in aide to Pakistan. You remember them, they were the ones helping Bin Laden out. By the way most government employees don't get paid as well as you think. So while the cost of living has been rising, aka gas, food, and health insurance, these employees pay has remained the same. But at least Osama had cable.

Second, Obama is hinging his entire campaign on everything other than what is really wrong with this country. JOBS people, we need them, don't have them. Let's talk about the drop in unemployment to 7.8%. Complete and utter bull. First off, most of the gains were in people obtaining part-time work, and probably due to the fact that the holliday season is approaching and retail businesses are begining to ramp up for it. Second, the number is fudged anyway, because they ignore the discouraged worker. If they lost their job, and benefits have dried up, and they still haven't found work yet, they don't get counted.

Finally, debt, we have way too much of it. If you ran your personal finances the way the government runs it's finances then you would be homeless. The biggest problem here is a lack of leadership from the president. We have no current budget, nor have we had one in years. Why, because this presidents budget proposal was so laughable, he couldn't even garner one vote for it, and I'm talking republicans and democrats.This has left it up to two houses posturing for position. A republican lead house, and a democratic senate, neither of which is willing to yeild or compromise. And where is the president during all of this? He's out telling you the republicans are holding us up. He is right, and wrong, the White House and Congress, both republican and democrat, are to blame. A real leader, a real excutive, would gather the leaders of the house and senate and lock them in a room until we had a budget they could all agree on, for the sake of the country.

[Guitfiddel]

cnavydt--"First, the president went all over the country talking about fiscal responsibility, and how it begins at home. So, he orders that all federal employees pay be frozen for 2 years to save 5 billion and help pay down the deficit.
WRONG!! VERY WRONG!
"Republicans seek pay freeze for federal workers; a 'cynical ploy,' Democrats say"(2010) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/14/AR2010061405574.html
You might wat to get your FACTS STRAIGHT before you just...Well, you know...end up like Paul Ryanin after theVP DEBATE. The Republicans CUT PAY for FEDERAL EMPLOYEES;not the President! AND, they're still want to cut more today!
http://www.govexec.com/pay-benefits/2011/04/gop-budget-resolution-calls-for-pay-freeze-through-2015/33699/

[retrostar1000]

Aid to foreign countries is an insignificant portion of our debt, about 1-2%. $5 billion would not even pay for one week of the Iraq war.

Congress has refused to work with Obama on anything, including a jobs bill. In spite of facing the worst, do-nothing Congress the country has ever seen, jobs growth has been steady for 31 months straight.

It is no secret House and Senate Republicans have held our country hostage from progress. They have sworn from day one to obstruct Obama at every turn, no matter what harm it does to the country. What more can the President do when faced with this deep hatred. Republicans will never work with Obama. The answer is to replace Congress, not the president.

[stevehamilton858]

You hit the nail on the head. Romney also lied within the first 5 minutes when he disavowed the $5,7 trillion tax reduction impact figure. Guess who calculated that figure? The CBO. The president should have gone for the jugular, but gave Mitt a "hall pass" - why, I don't know. Does Mitt think that the CBO is partisan, as his party thinks the BLS is?

I was on my college debate team, years ago, and my sense is that Biden was as good as the president was bad. Besides, debates are won more often by style than substance. That's why the president got kneecapped; Jim Lehrer let Romney speak 50 minutes to the president's 30. Mitt had great style - the president didn't. Martha Raditz did a great job as moderator; neither bebater had a "time to talk" advantage, and she did a better job of keeping the contestants on track.

Also, I think your observation about the Biden/Palin debate is right on; the Repubs were all puffed up by the first debate, and they allowed themselves to forecast what Biden would do, based on his relatively gentle treatment of Palin.

[sueb45]

What I don't get is that the media seems to be driving this story. They never talk about how much and often Romeny lied during the first debate. All they're talking about in the second debate is Joe Biden laughing--they never mention how totally incompetent Ryan was and that Biden took him out to the wood shed!

[ammo17]

he reminded me(biden) of a loud mouth drunk in a bar who thinks he knows everything.

[vcav]

JFK the greatest Democrat of all time supporting the Romney Ryan plan in a 1963 speech on tax cuts. Ryan said this last night and Biden tried to call him on it saying "Oh now your Jack Kennedy". listen to the speech it is true. If the link does not work search JFK on tax cuts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmHdqWPB_S8

[stevehamilton858]

He reminded me of someone who isn't afraid of confrontation, or to look someone who is BSing him, right in the eye and call his bluff. Frankly, it's something the president should have done, when Mitt Romney said his tax cuts weren't anywhere near $5.7 trillion (which is the calculation of the CBO, a group not known for partisanship). Romney lied and got away with it. The VP's staff did a much better job of preparing him than the president's staff did. And Joe didn't let a single opportunity to confront Ryan about his "facts" slip by. I've spent a lot of time in bars over the years, and your characterization is at odds with my observations of lots of obnoxious, know-it-all drunks.

[sueb45]

Biden schooled Ryan. Ryan looked embarrassingly without a clue when it came to Syria and Afghanistan. His numbers didn't add up and Joe made sure everyone knew it. My favorite Joe line of the night was when he said Romney said not to stop the foreclosure process. I've always thought the press gave Romney a pass on that remark..."don't try to stop the foreclosure process, let the house go under, let investors buy them and make a profit".....(never mind the families that lived there, they were probably part of the 47% anyway).

[bluejacket2-2009]

One has to be rude with guys like Romney and Ryan who just keep yaking about smoke and mirrors...

[myth1958]

John Dickerson gives short shrift to Vice President Joe Biden's masterful debate performance last night, holding back praise as a non-partisan reporter ought to. Ryan, too, gets the tepid treatment, which suits the tepid GOP policy wonk. We were there to see Biden be Biden, and weren't disappointed. He captured the camera lens and held it all night, driving home many touchy issues that Romney and Ryan have stood for. He can afford to be a trifle cocky because his team has done great things in 4 years, whereas Republicans can only point to obfuscation as their main achievement. Saving an economy, and Detroit, and the Libyans while reforming Wall Street, reforming health care and reforming military policy on gays has kept Obama and Biden busy, while Romney and Ryan have... you tell me what they've done for everybody in the last four years. Moved further to the right, maybe. While that's commendable (for them), it hasn't done squat to alleviate widespread suffering across the land.

[GOP-R--Con-Men]

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets. They come to you disguised as sheep, but in their hearts they are vicious wolves.

Perfectly explains Romney and Ryan as they lie going after America's safety net.

[rationall7]

Joe called out Ryan's party for holding the tax-cut extensions for the middle class hostage after the democrats supported the entension on the Bush tax-cuts for the wealthy and I'm glad he did because it supports the claims that it's not just Mittens that doesn't care about the 47% it's their whole party. Keep fighting for us Joe, we luv you!

[nottblu]

After watching the debate last night I find it interesting reading the posters who felt Biden's performance was a "winner". Apparently those who feel Biden was somehow presidential and not rude, disrespectful, interuptive and disruptive must themselves be just as rude and childish. It is impossible to see Biden'd performance in a positive light if you are a well mannered clear thinking ADULT.

[cubscout09]

Joe Biden was under pressure, form his base, to call out Ryan on lies. It is not that Ryan chose to lie within the first 6 minutes of the debate. And, in the light of the fact that the moderator was not calling time consistently, yes, Joe reminded her, more than once, that Ryan had exceeded his time.

Nielsen estimates that 31.4 Americans viewed Obama's speech on the American Jobs Act. The Democratic Economic Plan is well known and documented.
S.1549 The American Jobs Act - 411 pages

Four hundred and eleven of legislation!
Why can not Romney/Ryan come up with any specifics, even when asked twice by the debate moderator????

[cubscout09]

That should have been "It is not Joe Biden's fault that Ryan chose to lie within the first 6 minutes of the debate."

Besides, Joe has a reputation as an aggressive debater. Paul Ryan knew that this was going to happen. The Biden/Palin debate might have confused the uninitiated as to Joe's temperament.