Turkey and Armenia's Battle over History

Some were forced to buy round trip tickets for train journeys from which they never returned. They ended up in box cars; the rest, mostly women and children were forced on death marches for hundreds of miles. Many perished from starvation, disease or brutal killings. The survivors ended up in concentration camps hundreds of miles from Istanbul, out of sight.

At the time of the deportations, American diplomats in the region sent dispatches to Washington detailing what they had seen and heard. Just weeks after the arrests had begun, Henry Morgenthau the U.S. ambassador, sent off this one: "Deportation of and excesses against peaceful Armenians is increasing and from harrowing reports of eyewitnesses it appears that a campaign of race extermination is in progress…"

To this day the Turks vigorously deny there was any such campaign.
When we spoke to Nabi Sensoy, he was Turkey's ambassador to Washington.

"We were in Syria, sir, and we scratched the sand and came up with bones. How can you argue with that?" Simon asked the ambassador.

"Well bones you can find anywhere in Turkey, you know. There have been a lot of tragedies that have happened in those lands," he replied.

"Excuse me, sir. We dug up these bones in a place called Deir Zor, which Armenians say is their equivalent of Auschwitz," Simon pointed out.

"Well, I don't think that it was anything to comparable to Auschwitz. This was only deportation. And things happened on the road," Sensoy replied.

"But the deportations ended in massacres, didn't they?" Simon asked.

"No, it did not," the ambassador insisted.

"Weren't there massacres, mass executions and death marches of the Armenians?" Simon asked.

"There was no death marches of Armenians. There was deportation and tragic things happened. Many people perished under the deprivations of the First World War," Sensoy said.

But did what happen in 1915 amount to genocide? The UN defines it as the intent to destroy a racial, ethnic or religious group.

"The most important thing is the intent. The killings are something else. It happened on both sides. But whether it constitutes genocide is another matter. It is a legal word and it should not be lightly used," Sensoy explained.

"But you're saying there was no intention of the Turkish government…," Simon said.

"There was no intention of annihilating in all or in part the Armenian population," Sensoy said.

Bishop Sarkin Sarkissian is convinced that the massacres were intended and meticulously executed. He showed us one of the caves into which he said untold numbers of Armenians, women and children were thrown.

It was, the Armenians believe, a primitive gas chamber.

According to the bishop, they lit fires at the mouth of the cave.

"And the people inside couldn't breathe anymore?" Simon asked.

"Exactly. And there is no other way to escape out," Bishop Sarkissian replied.

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[cbsargyris]

@ Robert5604 March 9, 2010 5:59 PM EST


You?re at loss what history sciences are comprised of but you?re seriously asking about the ?educational background in History? of Genocide Scholars?
http://www.voelkermord.at/docs/Scholars_Denying_IAGS.pdf


Only a clueless Genocide Denier would try to discredit ?genocidescholars.org? by simply questioning the scientific merit of two Executive Board members, isn?t it, smiling Robert?

Just have an other guess answering your questions.

And you won?t forget to give a hint of your "smelly" information source (cbsargyris March 9),
will you?

[ella187]

http://www.historyoftruth.com/

[truth_truth]

It is not surprising that the Turks would deny the genocide. Propaganda is a great thing! After all, why would they accept it? If the Turkish government has adopted a policy of denial and has been spreading and propagating their own ?truth?, how would regular citizens think differently? And do they really want to know the truth?

Leaving the politics to politicians, I want to address regular Turkish citizens to open up and widen their scope a little bit and look at this complex issue from a different perspective, read alternative literature on those historic events, which is by the way written by non-Armenians. I can probably agree that when defending themselves, Armenians would also kill Turkish people. But this is a natural thing, when someone tries to defend himself and his family.

It?s interesting when you are called ?cut and paster? by a Turkish person who asks you to put yourself in Turks` shoes? My grand grandmother was a survivor of the genocide. Its hard to picture her cutting and pasting all the stories she was telling us on how Turkish soldiers, killed her 7 brothers, and how the women and children (because all men were killed) from their neighborhood were hiding in the forests before they were eventually rescued by Russian soldiers who brought them to the walls of Echmiadzin in Eastern Armenia. Now I ask Turkish person put themselves in Armenian`s shoes and imagine for a moment that it was his/her grandmother. What would be their perspective now?

Being an objective person, I do not want to speak as Armenian here. I did not learn about genocide from TV or the textbooks in my school. I was born and lived in Soviet Armenia, where such topics were not much favored by communists. I heave heard of it from my direct relative, who survived it. So did my friends. They have heard all the stories from their grandparents and relatives who were able to escape to eastern part of Armenia. It?s hard to imagine a lie of this big of a scale, when people with various backgrounds, education, and of different social belonging who lived in various parts of western Armenia all of a sudden started consistently telling the same facts/?lies?/ over and over again?

On the other hand, if I try to put myself in Turks` shoes, I would definitely not blindly deny something without knowing the perspective, facts and proves of the other side. After all, its not modern Turks who committed this crime and as modern people they should try to look at this complex issue from ?non-Turkish? perspective, trying to be impartial and objective. I realize it reuqires huge strenght and will on behalf of one nation to look at its own past, but I am sure that this is the only way to pave the brighter future for your country and nation.

[Robert5604]

truth_truth, I would be interested to know if any of the Armenian people you met ever mentioned their participation in the ethnic cleansing of the Muslim population in eastern Anatolia that triggered the relocation process ?

I do believe that the stories you were told are true, but for each Armenian tragedy story, I can bring you an equaly tragic one from the Turkish / Kurdish / Azeri side.

In the first 20 years of that century, over 500 000 Muslims (Turk, Kurd, Azeri, Tartar, etc. mostly women, children and old people, because men were fighting on the other sides of the Empire) had been killed by Armenian revolutionaries...

Is there anyone crying for them today ?

Armenians want the whole world to cry for their tragic losses but at the same time, do everything they can to prevent anyone to even acknowledge the killing of the Turks, Kurds, Azeris, Tartars etc.
Isn't that a tragedy in itself ?

At the Paris peace conference in 1919, Boghos Nubar, the representative of the Armenians bragged about the more than 200 000 Armenian revolutionaries that fought against the Empire on the side of Russia, France and England.

To paraphrase one of your sentence: Ask an Armenian person to put himself in a Turk's shoes and imagine for a moment what it would be like to come back home from the front only to find out that his whole village has been burned to the ground ?

As you also wrote: "...read alternative literature on those historic events...". Well truth_truth I may be able to give you a few hints.

As an objective person, I am sure that you will find some interest in the followings...

There are many documents freely accessible at:
http://armenians-1915.blogspot.com/2008/08/2558-free-e-books-documents.html

Leave aside Turkish literature if you don't trust it, focus on Armenian and foreign literature.
Titles like:
Armanians by C.F. Dixon-Johnson,
Pastermajian's Why Armenia should be free,
Near-East Relief Report 1921,
Dashnagtzoutiun Has Nothing To Do Anymore,
K. S. Papazian's Book, Patriotism Perverted,
just to name a few, might be of interest.

I am certainly not trying to diminish the tragedy of the Armenians, but to try to paint all Armenians in "white" and all the Muslims in "black", is a bit too simplistic for me.

Some questions keep coming into my mind:
If the Armenians would have not resort to ethnic cleansing and revolutions in eastern Anatolia, would there have been any relocation order given by the Ottoman government ?

If countries like Russia, France, England and the USA would have not "agitated" the Armenians into revolutions in the Empire, would there have been any relocation order given by the Ottoman government ?

After all that I have read on the subject since 10 years, my answer is NO.

Why are most Archives from England and France about these events still not accessible to Historians today ?
Why are Armenia as well as the Dashnak Archives in Boston not open for ALL to research today ?
One needs to be a member of the "Armenian Genocide Club" to access the Boston Archives !?!?!

Don't you smell something fishy in all of this ?

[cbsargyris]

@ Robert5604 March 5, 2010 5:10 PM EST

Like any brainwashed Genocide Denier you smile at sites such as Wikipedia, but you're proudly presenting material from 3rd rate Turkish Propaganda sites?

Robert wrote:
"... Why are most Archives from England and France about these events still not accessible to Historians today ?
Why are Armenia as well as the Dashnak Archives in Boston not open for ALL to research today ?
One needs to be a member of the "Armenian Genocide Club" to access the Boston Archives !?!?!
Don't you smell something fishy in all of this ? ..."

Have a try to provide the source of the "smelly" information you're claiming above.

Meanwhile don't forget this one:
http://www.genocidescholars.org/images/IAGS_Obama_Letter.pdf

[Robert5604]

@ cbsargyris March 9, 2010 12:22 PM EST

You are accusing me of being brainwashed because I put references to Armenian literature and US Gov archives documents such as:
Pastermajian's Why Armenia should be free,
Near-East Relief Report 1921,
Dashnagtzoutiun Has Nothing To Do Anymore,
K. S. Papazian's Book, Patriotism Perverted,

Quite typical of an AG supporter...

I bet that you never even read any of those documents written by Armenians that WERE actually there when the atrocities happened.


As for your "Genocide Scholar" website reference, can you tell me:
1- WHO are these scholars ?
2- What are their educational background in relation to History ?
3- How many of them actually did ANY research in ANY national archives around the world ?
4- WHO is actually founding these people ?

Please allow me to give you a hint on question 1:
Gregory Stanton, President: Phd in Cultural Anthropology !
Steven Leonard Jacobs, 1st V-P: Holds the Aaron Aronov Endowed Chair in Judaic Studies at the University of Alabama !

I guess question 2 has already been answered -- NONE !
To question 3, the answer is NONE !
To question 4, the answer is the Zorian Institute among others...

Genocide Scholars indeed,

Let me see if I get this clearly "cbsargyris", YOU are calling me a "brainwashed Genocide Denier" because I brought up some references to Armenian literature that CLEARLY contradicts the Genocide thesis, then you try to open up my eyes with a reference to the GenocideSholars.org people that have NO educational background in History, did NO research in ANY archive and are founded by an Armenian foundation, which has NO educational background in History, and did NO research in ANY archive !!!

So much for credibility here.

Still smell pretty fishy to me !

[DeWayneE]

This historic even also upon closer investigation brought up unknown and important related conditions. Generally situations such as this can be weighed afterward by studying the winner and loser, but in this case neither won... and instead in the dark background were found rising Empires at work and bringing about events. Shortly after the Young Turks or Ottomon Empire lost to the interest's of a "Sun Never Sets" Empire. Now what connection with Russia might there be???

[Figaro12]

Even the Turiksh government in these days admitts that.. "during WW1 of the War the Turkish government did relocate most of the Armenian population through forced marches mainly from Anatolia to Syria. ..."in the course of which hundreds of thousands Armenians lost their lives,...'accidentally' as a result of the hunger and devastating humanitarian conditions of WW1".

WHERE THE MASSACRES WELL PLANNED ? DID THEY INTEND TO DESTROY THE WHOLY ARMENIAN POPULATION OF ANATOLIA ?

It can only be obvious to any researcher, that the collapsing Ottoman Empire, after so many years of wars, against so many enemies from all sides (Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs, in the Balkan Wars), tried to dodge the Armenian Question, by the extermination of its population. And that is absolutely proved, by the very well organised and operated thunder arrest and killing of 600 intellectualls and spiritual leaders of the Armenian community on the 24th of April 1915. There can be no other reason to arrest, the spiritual leaders, writers and intellectuals of any community than to cripple the head of the body you intend to finish. The evidence can not be denied. Someone can find the original hand-written order issued on April 24 1915 by a leading figure of the young Turks, Talaat.(www.en.wikisource.org/wiki/Circular_on_April_24_1915)
There are so many eye-witness reports and assertions on what was happening during WW1 in Anatolia, from so many different sources, that there is no real space for doubt.
In the words of H. Morgenthau (Ambassador of the U.S in the Ottoman empire) "When the Turkish authorities gave the orders for these deportations, they were merely giving the death warrant to a whole race; they understood this well, and, in their conversations with me, they made no particular attempt to conceal the fact..."

" the whole history of the human race contains no such horrible episode as this. The great massacres and persecutions of the past seem almost insignificant when compared to the sufferings of the Armenian race in 1915." (Ambassador Morgenthau's story, 1918)


DID THE ARMENIAN REVOLUTIONARIES POSE A REAL THREAT TO THE OTTOMAN STATE ? DID THE ARMENIAN REVOLUTIONARIES COLLIDE WITH INVADING RUSSIANS AND START MASSACRING MUSLIM CIVILIANS IN ANATOLIA ?

Let's not forget that Turkey was an Empire at the time that had just lost enormous territotries in the Balkan Wars of Independence against Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria and Romania. Let's not forget that the Ottoman Empire was between the biggest powers of the time and was capable of holding repeated wars against Russia in the 18th century, and Russia France, and Britain during WW1. Armenian revolutionaries where just another ehtnicity looking for their own independence from the Ottoman Empire. Armenian revolutionaries did collide with invading Russians and fought against the Ottoman Empire to assert their right of self determination. Turkish attempts to bargain down the Armenian Genocide by claiming that Armenians also massacred muslims are totally in vain, since tha Ottoman Empire colliding with Germany was in the middle of large scale World War against the biggest powers of the time.

Let's not forget that massacres against the Armenians population in massive scales, had already started with the Hamidian Massacres of 1894-1896 when, between 100.000 and 300.000 where slaughtered. Armenian revolutionaries stood up against the Ottoman Empire in order to protect their own civilian population.

Since the middle ages and throughout the centuries Imperial and Colonial powers have ruled over other nations, through overwhelming power and might. Many times in history before, Imperial powers had used overwhelming might to suffocate a revolution. Many times in history before, Imperial Powers had slaughtered, resisting indigenous people and innocent civilians.

But it was the first time in history that an Imerial Power attempted to erase a acivilization on it's entire in such a brutal and inhummane manner.

Let's not forget that the term crime against hummanity was first used by the Tripartite Power during the First World War, based on the consent that such acts of horror should never happen again, under no circumsatances...



On May 24, 1915, the Allied Powers, Britain, France, and Russia, jointly issued a statement charging explicitly for the first time ever, another government of committing "a crime against humanity".

"In view of these new crimes of the Ottoman Empire against humanity and civilization, the Allied Governments announce publicly to the Sublime Porte that they will hold personally responsible for these crimes all members of the Ottoman Government, as well as those of their agents who are implicated in such massacres."[3](Wikipedia, Armenian Genocide, also...in Crimes Against Humanity(citing the original telegram sent by the U.S Department of State).

[Robert5604]

It always bring a smile to my face when someone brings up those Wiki web sites as references.

Anyways, since you like those sites so much Figaro12, have a look at the Armenian population stat during those times at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Armenian_population.
And try to make a average out of those figures...

Now, have a look at the Near-East Relief report of december of 1921, which is an Official US archive document,
NOT a WIKI reference !!!

You can download a scanned copy in pdf format at:
http://armenian-tales.googlegroups.com/web/NearEastRelief1921.pdf (2MB)

Do your maths and try to come up with the mythical figure of 1.5 million.
Keep in mind that 10s of thousands had already emigrated to Russia, France, US etc., therefore, those are not accounted in the N-E report.

One last thing Figaro12, did you know that in 1921, Henry Morgenthau (ex-Ambassador) was a chairman of the N-E Relief organisation and co-signed that report ?

Get out of those WIKI web sites and try to locate "authentic" documents like K.S Papazian's Patriotism Perverted, Niles and Southerland Report (US Archives), General James Harbord's Near-East report (US Archives), Hratch Dasnabedian's History of Armenian Revolutionary Federation - Dashnaktsutiun (1890-1924), just to name a few...

[DeWayneE]

I have to agree with Robert (smiling at wiki and historical document), besides the re-writing of history that has hit high gear of late, allowing only the victor to write history appears to alter facts somewhat, often somewhat unrecognizable from actual truth.

[Funky-President]

Who will correct American history>?

PUBLISHED SEPT 4, 2001.

nytimes.com/2001/09/04/international/04GERM.html ?pagewanted=all

Earlier this year, administration officials said, the Pentagon drew up plans to engineer genetically a potentially more potent variant of the bacterium that causes anthrax..."



This was an engineered copy of a soviet anthrax strain containing silicon on the inside of the anthrax spore. We didn't (really weaponize it)add it to the outside until later...2003 if you believe the FBI. yet is was already resistant to some antibiotics and already had over 1% silicon in 2001. But if you belive them, the mail anthrax was made up to two years before the attacks.
Please check the dates and projects in the article and compare that to what the FBI said about the suspect.
It's alarming.

[Funky-President]

Can we declare the Extermination of native American indians as Genocide also. It seems the genocide label would go over better if we took a look at ourselves.

[kplazlee]

Here's a partial list of the 60+ third-party historians who conclude no genocide occurred during WWI:

Bernard Lewis
Stanford Shaw
David Fromkin
Justin McCarthy
Guenther Lewy
Norman Stone
Michael Gunter
Gilles Veinstein
Andrew Mango
Roderic Davidson
J.C. Hurwitz
William Batkay
Edward J. Erickson
Steven Katz
Edwin A. Grosvenor
Pierre Oberling
Dankwart Rostow
Heath Lowry
Avigdor Levy

[kplazlee]

Dear 60 Minutes,

Thank you for displaying your Christian crusader mentality and driving a wedge even further between people by your irresponsible and error laden "report."

First off, it is inconceivable that Bob Simon would pick up a piece of bone, and with no expertise whatsoever in archeology or any further scientific inquiry, not only declare it to be human, but also to be of Armenian origin from precisely 95 years ago with the death of that Armenian caused by Turks in a "concentration camp."

The utter contempt and disregard for truth, investigation and accurate reporting by your team is no less than astonishing.

On the most basic level, the constant reference to Turks was incorrect. There was no Turkey in 1915.

There was no "deportation" of anyone from the Ottoman Empire during WWI. Instead, there was a RELOCATION from a war front to another geographic location away from the fighting that was also WITHIN the Empire. Deportation implies exile from one country to another. No such thing occurred.

Next, the photos you displayed and represented as Armenians eerily resemble photographs of dead Ottoman Muslims, massacred at the hands of Armenian insurgents during WWI from the Ottoman archives.

Armenians have been parading photos of not only Ottoman Muslims they massacred, but also photos of Jews killed by Nazis during the Holocaust, and falsely claiming the photos depict Armenians killed by Ottomans (see for example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0JzfCA2fFo).

How so very bigoted of you to so pointedly ignore the hundreds of thousands of Ottoman Muslims massacred by Armenians during WWI with the help of western nations like England, France, Russia and, yes, even the U.S.

How so very bigoted of you to also display a photo of Hrant Dink and placards describing him as a victim of "continuing genocide", while completely disregarding the several dozens of civilian Turks gunned down by Armenian terrorists in the streets of the U.S. and Europe from the 1970s through the 1990s.

Kemal Arikan, for example, was assassinated by a brainwashed Armenian teenager in Los Angeles, and like Dink he was married and a father. But, no Armenian in Los Angeles marched down the streets shouting in solidarity with Turks against senseless murders "We are all Turks" as did hundreds of thousands of Turks in Istanbul after Dink's murder.

No Armenian leader condemned the killing. Instead, Armenians collected money for the murderer's legal defense and consider him a HERO. Most do not know who Arikan is today. There are more than 70 such human tragedies that Armenians and so-called "reporters" like you shamefully ignore.

Your tears and concern are not for humanity; your tears are for one side only--Christians. Your tears are partisan. Your morality is selective, entirely un-American and positively medieval. If you had a conscience you would be ashamed.

[DeWayneE]

I do not believe that a claim was made that no atrocities were commited against Armenian, in fact I've read about a trial and judgment made against a militatry individual/s. Also, when a single bone fragment explains an entire historical occurance, I would have to guess this would be one very unusual bone fragment.

[kakudu]

they arent turks. they are enemy of turks and u are a fasist because muslim's terorizm was made by USA. bin ladin and saddam was a member of the usa. remember the past. and never forget it. history of TURKS have began b.c 3000 and still we live in the word but can u tell me about US history? muslims arent murder. we cant hit anybody. because our religion order us like this.

[DeWayneE]

Actually I would point out that concerning these "Muslim Terrorists" involved in flying planes into the WTC bldgs, most are still alive today believing a mistake (may) have been made, the Osama bin Laden video confessing to WTC was found a poor fake... and the FBI because of this say insufficient proof exists to make charges against these 'Islamofascisterrorists'. A small historical significance...

[RickCain4150]

Adolf Hitler suggested that nobody would care what the nazis do to the jews, if you took into account what the Turks did to the Armenians in 1915.

That comment pretty much speaks for itself.