"Face the Nation" transcripts January 20, 2013: Plouffe, Rice, inauguration 2013, MLK panel, and the Castro twins
(CBS News) Below is a transcript of "Face the Nation" on January 20, 2013, hosted by CBS News' Bob Schieffer. Guests include White House senior adviser David Plouffe, former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, The Washington Post's Bob Woodward, former Bill Clinton Press Secretary Dee Dee Myers, Wall Street Journal columnist Peggy Noonan, a panel on the legacy of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., featuring author Taylor Branch, LeHigh University's Dr. James Peterson, and former LBJ aide Joe Califano, and finally, San Antonio Mayor Julian Castro and his twin brother, Rep. Joaquin Castro, D-Tex.
SCHIEFFER: Today on FACE THE NATION, Barack Obama and the second time around. They're putting the final touches on the platforms and podiums. The rehearsals are under way, and Vice President Biden has already taken the oath.
VICE PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN: So, help me God.
BOB SCHIEFFER: That's because the Constitution says the oath must be taken on January twentieth. The President takes it at noon. Then, all of it will be repeated during the public ceremony tomorrow. But in a Capitol divided, what next? No one has a better handle on what the President wants to do than White House adviser David Plouffe, who joins us this morning. Monday is Martin Luther King Junior's birthday, also, so we'll talk about all of it with the former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice; Bob Woodward of The Washington Post; former Clinton aide, Dee Dee Myers of Vanity Fair; conservative columnist Peggy Noonan of The Wall Street Journal; Joe Califano once an aide to Lyndon Johnson; Taylor Branch, author of a new book on race; and James Peterson of Lehigh University. We'll round it out with the newest brother act in politics, San Antonio Mayor Julian Castro and his identical twin, Joaquin, just elected to Congress. That's a big group, but there is a lot to talk about on FACE THE NATION.
ANNOUNCER: From CBS News in Washington, FACE THE NATION with Bob Schieffer.
BOB SCHIEFFER: And, good morning again. We welcome to the broadcast David Plouffe, architect of the President's election in 2008; again last year a key adviser in the administration throughout. Let me ask you first about the situation in Algeria, where this awful terrorist attack took place. We know-- know that there were seven Americans at that compound, and the reports are one is dead. Do you have any more information on any of the others?
DAVID PLOUFFE (White House Senior Advisor): I don't this morning, Bob. Obviously, if and when we have additional information, the State Department will release that.
BOB SCHIEFFER: And what about this whole state of terrorism now? Have we defeated al Qaeda, as some in the administration were talking about earlier?
DAVID PLOUFFE: Well, we have, I think, decimated a lot of al Qaeda's top leadership, you know, particularly in the Afghanistan-Pakistan region. But I think what this shows is, countries around the world share a common threat. It's why we work so closely with our counterterrorism partners on sharing information and expertise and technology. But it's going to take a global response to this. And it-- it shows that whether it's in North Africa, Yemen, you know, there are real threats out there from terrorism and we need to stay vigilant and we are going to work with our allies and our counterterrorism partners as closely as we can.
BOB SCHIEFFER: What do you know about what the Algerian government did in trying to end this? They killed a lot of people. Did they? Was this done right or?
DAVID PLOUFFE: Well, first of all, I think the focus-- all of the blame here needs to be on the terrorists, obviously, who committed this act. To use innocent civilians in their twisted aims, obviously, is a terrible thing. We're, obviously, going to be working closely with the Algerian government in the days ahead to have a full understanding of what happened. But I think the focus needs to be here on the terrorists who committed this atrocity and understand that there are threats around the world and we need to continue to be vigilant and continue to partner with our counterterrorism allies to make sure that we are disrupting these networks wherever they are.
BOB SCHIEFFER: I was thinking back about the country. It-- it is deeply divided, certainly as divided as it was at the end of Jimmy Carter's term, maybe as divided as it was all the way back to 1968, when the country was torn apart by the Vietnam War. What are your priorities as you go into this new term?
DAVID PLOUFFE: Well, the first priority, Bob, is obviously to continue to grow the economy, focused on the middle class, and getting people in the middle class. That's the core mission of the country is. We've, obviously, beginning to recover from the recession, but we have a lot more work to do. But if you look at some of-- well-- well, yes, we-- we have some political divisions in this country. There is vast support out there for balanced deficit reduction, investments in education and manufacturing, immigration reform, gun safety. So on the issues the President intends to really push and focus on, there's massive support in the country, even amongst Republicans, that's why-- and let's not lose sight of that, that-- and that's why we're going to do a better job in the second term of-- while we're going to do all we can to work with Congress and negotiate, to also make sure the American people are more connected to what's going on here. And-- because I think to really get the kind of change here in Washington, the-- the American people are going to demand it. But there is-- is real, I think, consensus around a lot of these issues out in the country.
BOB SCHIEFFER: What about the idea that--
DAVID PLOUFFE: Yeah.
BOB SCHIEFFER: --the Republicans have now said that they will--
DAVID PLOUFFE: Yeah.
BOB SCHIEFFER: --go along with the three-month extension put on the-- on the debt ceiling increase, are you going to be-- does that help or?
DAVID PLOUFFE: Well, it's helpful that they have now dropped their demand. That the only way they are going to pay the country's bills, they themselves racked up, would be to extract some concessions. You know we've got us this never again have this threat to the global economy and our economy because Congress may not pay its bills. Now, three months is no way to run an economy or railroad or anything else, so that's not ideal. But there is-- so I think it's a significant moment that the Republican Party now has moved off their position that the only way they're going to pay their bills is if they get their correct kind of concessions. Now, where does that leave us? I think we would all be better served to go back to a little bit more regular order in Congress, so we're not careening crisis to crisis. Congress ought to work together and come up with a long-term fiscal plan.
BOB SCHIEFFER: But you see this as a good sign?
DAVID PLOUFFE: I think that they are no longer saying the only way we pay our bills is, you know, to have huge cuts to things like Medicare or that's positive. But, let's try and get some-- listen, you see our economy--good housing numbers this past week, good construction numbers. I think that our economy is poised to really grow, and-- and we can't have Washington be the hindrance to that. Washington ought to be a help, not a hindrance.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Can you get a gun bill through Congress?
DAVID PLOUFFE: We think we can. It's going to be very, very hard. Obviously, this is a tough issue, as a lot are. But I think if you look at the American people on things like assault weapons, high-capacity ammunition clips, universal background checks, school safety, mental health, huge consensus on these issues. So we're going to have to spend a lot of time on it. But I think post-Newtown things have changed a little bit; you see members of both parties thinking about this little bit differently. And at the very least I think the American people are going to want us to have a debate and a vote on these things, and I'm convinced that, yeah. Are there sixty senators and two hundred eighteen House members for some of these proposals? I think there are.
BOB SCHIEFFER: All right, David Plouffe, we want to thank you for coming by this morning.
DAVID PLOUFFE: Thanks, Bob.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Best of luck.
DAVID PLOUFFE: Thank you, Sir.
BOB SCHIEFFER: And joining us now, well, everybody knows Condoleezza Rice was President Bush's Secretary of State, but I am very pleased to announce she has a new job. As of today, she is joining CBS News as a contributor. We're honored to have you making your first appearance on CBS here on FACE THE NATION. Also, with us today, Bob Woodward who needs no introduction, he has been in Washington about as long as I have. Plus, two former White House staffers, Peggy Noonan, now-- with the Wall Street Journal, she wrote speeches for Ronald Reagan, was a member, also helped George-- the first George Bush on some of his things; and Dee Dee Myers, now with Vanity Fair, but press secretary to Bill Clinton. Doctor Rice, let me just start. You were there for both of George Bush's inaugurations. What's the difference in the first one and the second one?
CONDOLEEZZA RICE (CBS News Contributor): Well, frankly, the first one is a lot more exciting than the second one. I remember being completely taken with the moment. By the second one, I thought, you know, I really need to get to work. And, so there is a little bit of a sense, it's not really let-down, but you are in the middle-- you-- of your agenda now. And in foreign policy, very often, the actions you have taken, the consequences are now clear whether good or bad. And you either have to make a corrective course for some of the bad consequences or try to solidify some of the gains that you've made. And because you really don't have four years now, it will start to-- to slip away very quickly. You've got to set some priorities, because the President's time, the Secretary of State's time, Secretary of State-- Defense's time is pretty limited. You better know what you want to achieve in this three years or so.
BOB SCHIEFFER: You told me earlier this morning something I had never known. You were the National Security Adviser, one of the President's closest aides during the first term. Then you were nominated to be Secretary of State, and you told me you had to go through a full background check.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE: That's right. I remember thinking because they were actually going out and talking to my neighbors again. And I remember thinking didn't we just do this four years ago? You know what I've been doing for the last four years. So, maybe it's a little bit of a sense of the turf wars in-- in Washington between the White House and State Department but it was done all over again.
BOB SCHIEFFER: That-- that's just amazing to me. Bob, you have watched a few of these inaugurations. You heard David Plouffe say this morning he thinks there is massive support for deficit reduction in the country, and massive support for this and that. I'm not sure how-- how massive the support is. It seems to me everybody wants to do something but nobody wants to make-- neither side is ready to make-- bring any compromises here.
BOB WOODWARD: The-- the simple but obvious truth is that governing is a collaboration between the White House and the-- the Congress and let's face it. It's a collaboration that is not working. It is broken. And the President has not found a way to kind of close the deal with the leaders in the Republican Party, and, quite frankly, with his own party. I remember Katharine Graham, the publisher of the Washington Post, used to always say, it's hard to not like someone who says they like you. You talk to Senators and Congressmen, as you know, and they feel Barack Obama doesn't like them or is at least indifferent to them. And so you have all of these conflicts and negotiations. In the end, look, the President has the upper hand now and will for some time, but you know-- and Condi Rice knows so well-- any negotiation you need to leave the opponent with their dignity. And their-- and the President's going out and sticking his finger in their eye.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, you know, Dee Dee, it-- it even goes beyond that, what Bob says that Republicans feel like the President doesn't like them. You hear some people say he-- he really doesn't like the whole process. He didn't like kind of getting his hands dirty with negotiations and stuff. He likes to look at it in a more abstract way. Is that true?
DEE DEE MYERS (Vanity Fair): Well, it certainly-- you know, he-- he is a politician who doesn't love politics, right? And it's not sure he even likes the art of politics and that's a problem.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, how you can be a good politician if you don't like politics?
DEE DEE MYERS: I think it's proved-- I think it's--it's created a lot of challenges for him. He hasn't built the kinds of relationships that sustain other politicians through tough times. And I think Bob made a really great and essential point, which is in any negotiation you have to have-- you have to find the best win-win proposition that you can. You have to let the other guys leave the table saying they got something for their side, because they're giving up-- they are going to give up something big if it's going to be an important deal. And I think that-- that this White House has not done that as successfully as they need to. And I think-- you know, otherwise you end up with Versailles right. You solve the First World War with a treaty that sows the seeds of the second one. And that's not in anybody's interest and this President has not been as good at that as he could be. I was talking to Newt Gingrich recently about what made Clinton a great negotiator and he said he listened all the time to-- to find a piece of common ground where a deal could be built. This is from the Speaker of the House who worked to impeach the President. And all through that period, they were looking for a piece of common ground. And I think this administration will be well served to do that.
BOB SCHIEFFER: So what's missing here, Peggy? I mean-- I mean sometimes I think that maybe nobody knows how to play the game anymore, to paraphrase Casey Stengel when he was managing the Mets.
PEGGY NOONAN (Wall Street Journal): Mm-Hm. Well, it's true on the Hill. Speakers and such don't quite control their conferences and their caucuses as they have, but the most interesting thing that I think is that-- that has been true of-- of the past few weeks, say since the President was reelected is he's playing it in a way different from previous Presidents. Previous Presidents get a win whether it's close or not and then they try to sort of put their arms about everybody and summon them in. We are essentially a fifty-fifty country still. So you would think the President would have spent the past few weeks going forward and saying let's all be together. Instead he has been very sharply, definitively us guys versus you guys by going at the Republicans on the Hill, by speaking in a way that is very sour about why Republicans take the stands they take. He implicitly is speaking about Republicans in the country who are half the country. I think that's a new way to play it, a tough and dicey way to play it.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Well--
PEGGY NOONAN: And it's going to be interesting to see how it works its way through in the inaugural.
BOB WOODWARD: And it may not serve his purposes.
PEGGY NOONAN: Yeah. It's a funny thing.
BOB WOODWARD: I mean, if you look at--
PEGGY NOONAN: I don't know.
BOB WOODWARD: --his gun legislation, which makes an awful lot of sense, quite frankly, and I think David Plouffe is right, the majority in the country want something. And the President goes out and attacks the gun lobby now-- by name. Now, there is a gun lobby in this country. Let's face it. But when you were trying to work something out with the moderate centrists who are members of the NRA and there are, in fact, lots of them, you don't-- they don't want to be called the gun lobby. That's not the way they think of themselves.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, what-- what's your take on that, Doctor Rice?
CONDOLEEZZA RICE: Well, I think there is also a non-Washington piece to this. Obviously, relations with Congress are in-- on one side of the aisle pretty poisoned right now. But also out in the country, the American people don't want to see this divisiveness. They want to see the President say I won the election and now here's where we're going but we're going together. I recognize that we have differences that may be even deep. But first and foremost, we're Americans. If you take something like immigration, for instance, I think this is something that could actually unite us again as a country because Americans know that that's who we are as a people. We are a country of immigrants. We've really benefited tremendously from being able to tap human potential from all over the world. But you can't do it from the point of view of I'm going to put this down and then you take it or leave it because there are some deep divisive character-- divisive issues within the immigration debate that are going to have to be smoothed over. So the American people-- I live out in California. I don't live here in Washington. And I will tell you that out in the country, there is a sense that Washington is divided and that's not a good thing for America.
PEGGY NOONAN: But it just doesn't work.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Let me-- let me just take a break here. We'll talk about this. I sure want to get back to talking about guns a little bit. But we'll take a break here for one minute.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Now we're back now with our panel. No one that I know of thinks it's a good thing that those children were slaughtered up in Connecticut. But there is a great deal of disagreement on how do you stop that from happening again. Dee Dee, what do you think has the best chance of passing? What, if anything, do you think is going to happen on this?
DEE DEE MYERS: Well, certainly there is a broad consensus in the country for enhanced background checks, eliminating the loopholes for gun shows and other sort of private transactions for guns. They're just-- against eighty percent even among gun-- gun owners; also, large magazines. And those-- again, broad consensus in the country that-- that those should be banned and so I think you will see a bill, including those two provisions, that has a good chance of passing. The assault weapons ban is much more difficult. We went through that in 1994-'93 and it's very hard to even define an assault weapon and then it's very easy for manufacturers to work around whatever that definition is. So, that's tough. What the President and the administration have to do and Democrats in Congress who want to see this passed that was reach out to moderates in the country who believe that in reasonable restrictions, who may own guns, or if they're members they come from districts with large gun-owning populations. You cannot alienate people, anybody who hasn't gone or even as a member of the NRA in a recent poll in both The New York Times and-- and the ABC-Washington Post poll, the NRA is a-- is a pretty popular institution. It's much more popular than, say, Hollywood.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Or the press.
DEE DEE MYERS: Or the press. And certainly way more popular than Congress.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, you don't have to be too popular.
DEE DEE MYERS: And so I do think it's-- it's important to focus on those places where there is consensus and not to vilify people.
PEGGY NOONAN: Yeah.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Peggy, the fiscal cliff, we got past that basically by just kicking most of it down the road. Now the Republicans say they won't try to hold this hostage to raising the debt limit. You heard David Plouffe say-- he almost said that's-- that's a good sign, but at least it's better than it was. Is anything going to happen on that?
PEGGY NOONAN: I think it's very hopeful what happened in the last few days when the Republicans came forward and said, "Look, we're not going to fight this one out now. We will extend for a short time." It's hard to admit when you care a lot that you are not calling the shots. But if you are a party that controls only one part of-- of one-third of government, only the House of Representatives, you are not calling the shots. You cannot govern from there. The people just had an election. They chose Mister Obama. He is going to get what he wants in the short term. Long term, there are many things you can do to push the ball forward in the way that you think most helpful.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Mm-Hm.
PEGGY NOONAN: Can I go back to guns for just a second? One of the things that I think was frustrating for those not on Mister Obama's side in general over the whole guns thing is that in his remarks he looked at everybody and he challenged those congressmen from mixed districts who have a lot of gun rights supporters. He challenged them and said try to be brave, do the right thing. That's a great thing to say. But he himself, the President, could have been brave and done the right thing by including in his big view of guns Hollywood, our culture, our media, all of the people who make entertainments that very arguably are hurting kids in America but who are the President's supporters. So he didn't want to do the right thing there and it's frustrating. When you're President you ought to be thinking big, and you can even when being-- when you've just been re-elected and you're going to be inaugurated, go for it. Be brave. Have a Sister Souljah moment. No, go to those who support you and say you're doing some things wrong. I really wish he had.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Let me ask Doctor Rice, what do you think the big challenges are going to be on foreign policy.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE: Well, interestingly, I think the first big challenge is to do something about the American economy because I do think that our international leadership has suffered both from the perception that America can't get its act together on entitlements and the deficit and so forth, and from the reality that without a stronger economy, there are just some things we cannot do. I was thinking about we're-- we're coming up pretty soon on the anniversary of PEPFAR, the President's emergency plan for-- for AIDS relief. It's something that on a bipartisan basis made America overwhelmingly popular because we were dealing with the pandemic of AIDS. I don't know that under today's budget conditions you could suggest that you spend initially fifteen billion and then fifty billion dollars on something like that. But that's the soul of our country in foreign policy. So I would say, first, get the economy humming again deal with the budget. And then I am afraid that like every President for a number of years, the Middle East has come back to haunt us and it's going to haunt us for a long time. I don't care how energy independent we become because of the North American energy platform, which we ought to develop, the Middle East is still the most malignant part of the world, and that malignancy is spreading into other parts of the world, including into North Africa as we've seen just this week.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Bob Woodward, you are kind of an expert on second terms. What are the things that the President ought to be on guard against?
BOB WOODWARD: Just about everything. You talk about malignancy in-- in the world and I think there is a real problem in governing here as we were talking about. But also if you can kind of step back, which is the hardest thing to do, the first Obama term was not bad. Lots of things-- I mean the mess he inherited, the financial crisis, we are now steaming out of, and if you talk to CEOs and business people, that we are kind of on the edge of a real economic rebirth, perhaps, if they fix the governing issues here and in the world, I'm-- I'm kind of struck-- I mean, Doctor Rice, Secretary Rice is exactly right. There is a lot of problems out there, but Obama's got a series of nominees very experienced.
BOB SCHIEFFER: All right. Well, thank you all for a very enlightening discussion. Well be back in just a moment.
BOB SCHIEFFER: It is hard to feel festive after the awful events of recent days. Still, Inauguration Day with its ceremony and speeches can be a refreshing change of pace, reminders that whatever the crisis of the moment, we remain a country of great accomplishment. For the record, George Washington made the shortest inaugural speech, a hundred and thirty-five words. William Henry Harrison made the longest. Harrison spoke for nearly two hours in a driving rain, caught pneumonia, and died a month later. Herbert Hoover got his speech all wrong. Eight months before the Great Depression he had declared that the country had reached a higher degree of comfort and security than at any time in history. Oops. But Lincoln got it so right. His with malice toward none, charity for all, was more than a speech. It was a life guide. Yet, no more powerful than Roosevelt's "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." And no less inspiring than Kennedy's ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country. As the nation was dividing into political parties, Jefferson warned, we are all Republicans. We are all federalists. Still, so true. And it was the first George Bush who looked out at the crowd and said, "We meet on democracy's front porch on a day when our nation is made whole, when our differences, for a moment, are suspended." Just think if we could keep that feeling going for a while, who knows what great things might still be done. Back in a moment.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Some of our stations are leaving us now, but for most of you we'll be right back with a lot more on FACE THE NATION--Joe Califano, James Peterson, Taylor Branch, and Condoleezza Rice. Stay with us.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Welcome back to FACE THE NATION. This is not only inauguration weekend but Monday is the birthday of Martin Luther King Junior. So we are going to talk about that, too, today on FACE THE NATION and joining us, Secretary Rice has agreed to stay around. Pulitzer prize-winning author Taylor Branch, his new book is called The King Years: Historic Moments in the Civil Rights Movement. Also with us Joe Califano, who was a top aide to Lyndon Johnson back when he passed all that civil rights legislation; James Peterson from Lehigh University. I should also note that Mister Califano is a member of the CBS corporate board. I think the only other member of the board to appear on FACE THE NATION I believe was Walter Cronkite. He was elected to the board after--
JOSEPH CALIFANO (Former Johnson Aide): Good company.
BOB SCHIEFFER: --after he left the anchor chair. Let me just start with you, Joe. You know as we look out on Washington as divided as it is and these-- these problems that are dividing us, it occurs to me over and over the nation is not nearly as divided as it was over segregation, and-- and-- and it's not nearly as difficult, in my-- my mind to solve some of these problems as it was for Lyndon Johnson to get those civil rights bills through the Senate. How did he do it?
JOSEPH CALIFANO (Former Johnson Aide): Well, I mean, I think-- I think he-- one, I agree with you, incidentally. I think that the-- the attention, the fact that the southern Democrats controlled the Senate and they controlled the committees in the House, not only on civil rights but on virtually everything we were trying to do in the great society on spending, on those bills. I think, one, he knew those guys very, very well. He knew every guy-- every person. He knew what their price was. And he was willing to do what-- what he had to do. Number two, he is willing to give other people credit. I mean, just go back and think about, particularly the Voting Rights Act. I mean he really kind of let (INDISTINCT) Everett Dirksen and go up there, let him-- let him work on it. Let it be--
BOB SCHIEFFER: He was the Republican leader.
JOSEPH CALIFANO: And was the Republican leader. Let him-- let him have the bill. Let him do the bill. And talking about Martin Luther King, when the Voting Rights Act-- when he signed the Voting Rights Act, think about the fact that everyone said he'll give the pen to Martin Luther King. Well, he didn't. He gave the pen to Everett Dirksen and he said, you know, without Everett Dirksen, this would be a bill, not a law. And he knew how to do that. And-- and-- and he also knew that-- that-- he-- he was willing to make incredible, you know, sort of what the hell is the presidency for.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Mm-Hm.
JOSEPH CALIFANO: When his staff in 1964, before his first State of the Union, the entire staff said don't go for the civil rights bill of '64, prohibiting employment discrimination and-- and public accommodations. And it's a presidential election year, and he said, no, "What the hell is a presidency for, we'll go for it." And he went for it and he got it.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Condoleezza Rice, what did that mean to you?
CONDOLEEZZA RICE: Well, it meant everything. I-- I was a little girl in Birmingham, Alabama, the most segregated big city in America. And I remember quite well the day that President Kennedy was assassinated, and when we learned that he had died my teacher-- we were in school, my teacher was outside and I heard her say, what are we going to do now. The President is dead and there is a southerner in the White House. And there was a sense that we would not now get the great civil rights legislation. But I have just tremendous respect and, indeed, admiration for Lyndon Johnson. I-- I was telling some people at the White House when the fortieth anniversary came up of the so-called Public Accommodations Act that it meant for a little girl that we could go to a restaurant for the first time as a family. It meant that for the first time we could stay in a decent hotel driving from Birmingham to Denver, Colorado. And in these little ways it began to mean that we had begun-- only begun to overcome some of the birth defects of the United States and were being accepted as-- as full citizens. So from the eyes of an eight-year-old in Birmingham, Alabama, it wasn't a bill. It wasn't a law, it was a change in what it meant to be American.
BOB SCHIEFFER: I am not sure of Taylor Branch and I am sure-- one hopes that eventually it would have happened but I am not sure Jack Kennedy could have passed that legislation.
TAYLOR BRANCH (The King Years): Oh, I doubt that he could. He-- he introduced the act because of what happened in Birmingham, Doctor Rice's hometown, which was the great tipping point in 1963. And-- but it took-- I think it did take perhaps President Kennedy's death, which really shocked the country about the cost of hatred and-- and an inspiration to get past it. But the year 1963 was a great turning point. It's-- in this month of epic anniversaries for the broader American memory. We were a hundred and fifty years from the Emancipation Proclamation but we were only fifty years ago this month from George Wallace becoming governor of Alabama pledging, "Segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever." And segregation was embedded in the constitutions of the southern states and in many of the customs and institutions nationwide and he couldn't hold it. And-- and it set loose a lot of things that really, in proper perspective, that-- that Doctor Rice just spoke personally, we should all take great comfort and hope from all that was accomplished. But that-- George Wallace who couldn't hold segregation, also invented-- he was an ingenious politician-- and he invented a lot of the phrases in politics that are chillingly contemporary about how pointy-headed liberals--
BOB SCHIEFFER: I'll tell you how-- how short a time ago it was. I never attended a school that any black person had attended growing up in Fort Worth, Texas.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE: Yes. Right.
TAYLOR BRANCH: And when I went to Princeton Graduate School--
BOB SCHIEFFER: I never shook hands--
TAYLOR BRANCH: --there were no females.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE: Right.
BOB SCHIEFFER: I never shook hands with a black person till I was a second lieutenant of the United States Air Force and I can remember it, not because I didn't want to but they lived on one side of town, I lived on the other side of town. We just-- we just never came together.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE: Bob, I did not have-- I did not have a white classmate until we moved to Denver when I was in tenth grade, despite the fact that the schools were supposed to be integrated in Alabama after 1965. It would be several years more. But the good news is if you go to Birmingham today, it is an integrated city, and so it-- for me, it means that the human spirit is pretty irrepressible and prejudices can be overcome, even though we're still working at it.
BOB SCHIEFFER: What it-- let me ask you, Doctor Peterson, what did it mean to you?
DR. JAMES PETERSON (Lehigh University): I mean I am a little bit younger than folk here at the table but to here-- placed in the sort of historical context with the very authentic anecdotes just gives me pause, to be honest with you. Because, as someone who's been an educator for a long time we still wrestle with issues of diversity and we still need more women on our faculty, we need more students of color in our-- in our institutions. So I'm fighting those fights and it's-- it's really powerful to understand the historical context for those kinds of movements and for sort of our commitment to these things. It makes me feel as if even though things seem to be more stratified back in history, there was-- there were sort of more authentic ideologies that we were wrestling with. You know when I think about politics now and the gridlock that we have now, there is so much money in it and it seems so-- so inauthentic to me sometimes so having the history lesson I think is something that folk on the Hill need as well as folk in the classroom.
BOB SCHIEFFER: As a black person, as an African-American, do you think-- what-- what do you think is more important that Barack Obama was elected or that he was re-elected?
DR. JAMES PETERSON: Oh, wow, that's-- that's interesting. I-- I think that we need to think of it in terms of symbolic terms and also in terms of policy terms, right. So the re-election from a policy perspective I think is more important. The initial election from a symbolic perspective, I think was more important. So-- and I think some people diminish the symbolism for African-Americans and for America and for the world. I don't tend to do that. I think folk are-- are-- don't always understand the ways in which black people in the Democratic Party and those on the left are sometimes just as disenchanted with this President as those on the right. And so like-- I remember just from the last segment, you know, everyone says oh, he doesn't reach across the aisle, he doesn't compromise. Look, he nominated Chuck Hagel. He had Bob Gates. I mean there is so many ways of looking at it sometimes. But I think-- if you think about the symbolic nature of the first black president it's powerful for some people in a lot of different ways but we can't ignore the policy piece of it as well. There are a lot of people who want this President to do certain things. We want gun control, we want comprehensive immigration reform. And without those things being in place, then-- then in some ways, that policy piece of this presidency will be lacking.
BOB SCHIEFFER: What would you advise him to do right now?
JOSEPH CALIFANO: I'll-- I'll tell you, and I-- I think he-- he has to in some way sit down with Boehner, to be honest with you--
BOB SCHIEFFER: Mm-Hm.
JOSEPH CALIFANO: --face to face, mano-a-mano, and essentially say, "Look, you-- I know you've got a hell of a problem. What carrots, what sticks, what can I do to help you get those guys aboard so we can get some kind of an intelligent deficit financing thing here?" There's one other thing, can I mention, relating to King, which I think is really important. When you asked me at first, how did he get this done? Think about Selma. Wonderful phone conversation. In January of 1965, Lyndon Johnson talking to Martin Luther King and he says, "Martin, I want you to find the worst place in the South where there are the fewest negroes--[that was the term then]--that are-- that are eligible to vote and get your people down there and get people down there and get leaders down there and get it on television and get it on radio and get the American people to see it. And that will-- then I'll shove this bill through this Congress. I'll get voting rights because-- and-- and treat it as same for everybody. It's not a Negro thing. We want the guy on the tractor, the guy in Chicago, the guy in the suburban white to say, wait a minute, it's not fair. And if you get that publicity, they'll see that and we'll get it." So it-- it was reaching out, you know, getting guys to go to work for him. You know, he didn't-- we didn't have an organization like the one Obama is thinking about building them.
BOB SCHIEFFER: How big was the White House staff when you were there?
JOSEPH CALIFANO: It was about twenty-five people. Think about it.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE: Not anymore.
TAYLOR BRANCH: Not anymore.
JOSEPH CALIFANO: There were only about five senior aides. Think about it, you know, I had the first domestic policy operation. I had four people working for me. It's what, two hundred and sixty-seven today in domestic policy? It's actually it's-- it's way too big, puts the President deeply into this thing. And the last thing, immigration reform, something Taylor is very conscious of. You know, you look at this presidential election. You know, right after he passes the Voting Rights Act, he started breaking the filibuster, he says, "We got to get immigration reform." We'd closed the whole-- most of the world off. You had to be northern European and blond and blue-eyed if you wanted to get into this country. You know, there were quotas on Italians, there were quotas in South America and Mexico and Asia and Africa. And he said, "We do it right away." Well, they're prostrated. Prostrate, we'll get it done. And he got immigration reform done. And all you have to do-- to me it's the most important factor in Obama's reelection was the Voting Rights Act, which Johnson thought was the most important law of his administration, and immigration reform. Look at the electorate today. I mean, you have Indian-Americans, Asian-Americans, Mexican-Americans, African-Americans saying we're voting for our candidate, this is our country.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE: I-- I think there is one other point, though, about the civil rights legacy. Because we have to ask ourselves what is the new civil rights issue of today, and I actually think it's education.
DR. JAMES PETERSON: Right. Yes.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE: Because if you look at the effect now of race, for most-- for many, race is no longer really dispositive. But, boy, if you are poor and black and trapped in a failing neighborhood school some place, your prospects are really dim. And so I think as if we update the civil rights agenda we've got to think about how to educate the kids with--
DR. JAMES PETERSON: And, of course, Doctor Rice, people of color are over-represented in those poor populations--
CONDOLEEZZA RICE: That's right.
DR. JAMES PETERSON: --and so it's-- it's the intersection of both race and class. But education is the civil rights issue of the era. I mean it's the only way for us to really-- you know, Tavis was talking about poverty on this segment earlier on in CBS. The only way to really confront-- one of the most direct ways to confront that is through overhauling and making a much more robust public education system.
TAYLOR BRANCH: Well, what I would say on that for the President, I don't know too much about the relations with government, but I do think that there are signs in the broad cultural memory. We have aggressively misremembered the Civil War and the civil rights era by taking counsel of our-- our resentments and fears, and in true proportion there is a lot of hope there in the immigration bill, and in the civil rights era, the things that we did to knit-- to knit things together across the lines that divide us, and we can do it again if we get a proper perspective. We shouldn't be so curdled against the possibilities of politics, and we can't be because we got too many pressing problems, like immigration.
DR. JAMES PETERSON: Right.
TAYLOR BRANCH: So that's why I hope that a proper history can-- can help the President and can help, frankly, the Republican Party learn again how to respond to an aroused citizenry to do things for the American people.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Has the Republican Party got to diversify some way?
CONDOLEEZZA RICE: Well, the Republican Party certainly has to stop turning off large segments of the population. I've said you know it's-- it's not a strategy to keep hoping that parts of the population don't turn out. You've got to simply broaden. I think immigration is really the big issue, frankly. We sent some pretty bad signals around immigration. George W. Bush, John McCain, Jon Kyl, and Ted Kennedy had an immigration bill in 2007 and it failed. And I felt at that moment that that was the real missed opportunity. We've got to get comprehensive immigration reform back on the agenda. There are some Republicans like Marco Rubio and others who are speaking out about this because the Republican Party has to demonstrate that it has broad appeal. And I think on some of the core values, the notion of fiscal responsibility, a strong national defense, individual responsibility, yes, federalism. That there are things that the states ought to do that the federal government can't do. I think those are widely popular among the American people. But if you-- if you send messages that there are whole segments of the population that are-- are not welcome, not only is it bad politics, but it's bad policy because without immigration, robust immigration, we have the same sclerotic demographics of Japan and Europe. So the United States has the-- the Republican Party has both a political and a policy problem.
JOSEPH CALIFANO: You know this, just-- the President, one other thing the President has to do, I think--in your prior segment--you know, he can't keep sticking his finger in the eyes of-- of his opponents. Lyndon Johnson had a wonderful line I remember. Dean Rusk at one point said, "The globe's driving us crazy. You go tell de Gaulle to go to hell." And Lyndon Johnson turned to Rusk and he said, "Rusk, you have to learn something about politics. You never tell somebody in politics to go to hell unless you can send them there."
DR. JAMES PETERSON: But-- but I just--
JOSEPH CALIFANO: And Obama can't--
CONDOLEEZZA RICE: Yeah.
JOSEPH CALIFANO: --send those Republicans to hell. But he can, I think, he can get some cooperation from them that he hasn't gotten in the past. And-- and, also, he's got to reach out to the Democrats. Bob Woodward made an important point. I can confirm that. There is a real sense on the Hill that he's not-- he doesn't really like-- not that he like us, he doesn't respect us. He doesn't think we're, you know, like him. He thinks our fingers are dirty or whatever. And-- and that's-- you know, that's very important for him to get over that.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Doctor Peterson, I'll let you have the last word.
DR. JAMES PETERSON: I-- well, I-- I disagree that he stuck his finger in the eye of the NRA or of the gun lobby. I think we're getting so far away from--
JOSEPH CALIFANO: I'm just talking about the--
DR. JAMES PETERSON: Right. But from the-- but the last segment, though, people were talking about--
JOSEPH CALIFANO: Oh, yeah.
DR. JAMES PETERSON: --you know, how he handled the NRA piece and with not-- without enough nuance. I mean if you are around people who have been around these kinds of tragedies, I think you can understand that it's okay to have the conversation about gun ownership, but we need to be much more aggressive about how we're addressing safety for people in our society. So-- so agreed, maybe the President is not the greatest politician, but it's so interesting to me to watch because he gets so much flack from the left, so much flack from the right, you know, something-- he's got to be doing something right somewhere along the lines.
BOB SCHIEFFER: All right.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE: It-- it's a little bit, Bob, being President, I think that's--
DR. JAMES PETERSON: It is.
CONDOLEEZZA RICE: --is the way we are-- we-- no, no.
BOB SCHIEFFER: I could let this go on all-- all-- all for the rest of the morning but we have to move on. Thank you all so much. We'll be right back.
BOB SCHIEFFER: And joining us now in their first appearance on FACE THE NATION, Joaquín Castro, who is the new Congressman from San Antonio; and Julian Castro, who serves the residents of that city in another way. He is the mayor. Julian also was the keynote speaker at the Democratic Convention. And, as you may have suspected, they are identical twins. And I'll tell you, one of the most fun moments for me at the Democratic Convention, I was walking down the street in Charlotte, just walking down the street and somebody hollered to me and said, "Hey, Bob, my brother is the keynote speaker." And it was you. So he was out there taking care of you, Mister Mayor.
JULIAN CASTRO (San Antonio Mayor): He definitely did.
BOB SCHIEFFER: I've also got to ask you something, I want to clear this up once and for all. I am told that when you were running for mayor, that there may have been a time or two when you didn't quite get to the event you were supposed to get to, your brother showed up. And if anybody thought it was you, you didn't tell them otherwise. True or false?
JULIAN CASTRO: Well, it was him, but we didn't mean to do it.
REPRESENTATIVE JOAQUIN CASTRO (D-Texas): Yeah.
JULIAN CASTRO: So my political opponent said that I tried to have him go over there for me. But, yeah, he was the one that was there, sure.
BOB SCHIEFFER: He was there--
REPRESENTATIVE JOAQUIN CASTRO: Yeah. Yeah. And we're-- and, Bob, it's interesting, because when I am back home, I'm probably called the Mayor about ten times a day. People think that I'm my brother. But when he's in Washington, and when he was in Austin--
JULIAN CASTRO: So I'm getting payback now--
REPRESENTATIVE JOAQUIN CASTRO: Yeah.
JULIAN CASTRO: --because everybody calls me the Congressman.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, I have a-- a friend who served in Congress, and he always tells the story-- his name is Bill Stockley (ph). He always tells the story about one of his constituents called him to complain about her water bill. And his-- her water bill, and he said, "Well, Ma'am, you ought to call the mayor about that." And she said, "Well, I didn't want to go that high." So who-- who outranks who in this family?
JULIAN CASTRO: Well, probably Joaquín now.
REPRESENTATIVE JOAQUIN CASTRO: I say I do.
JULIAN CASTRO: You know, we-- we're proud of him.
REPRESENTATIVE JOAQUIN CASTRO: He's a minute older than I am. So he--
JULIAN CASTRO: Yeah, I always have the privileges of at least being a minute older. But both of us are-- are very, very excited to be working on behalf of the folks from San Antonio. It's an exciting time for our family, of course. And-- and this weekend is-- is fantastic to be a part of it.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Yeah. As a mayor, what's the most important issue to you, immigration reform or gun control?
JULIAN CASTRO: Well, I would say economic competitiveness. Of course, both immigration reform and gun control are long-term issues that are going to be addressed in this term. But for mayors across the country, I mean we hear the stories every day of folks who don't have work, of small businesses that-- that want to grow. And we see the economy picking up like gangbusters now. In San Antonio our unemployment rate has dropped by more than a percentage point in the last nine months. So that's the most important issue. But there are a whole host of issues that are significant and need to be addressed. And that I have no doubt that this guy and all the other folks in Congress will get addressed during the tour.
BOB SCHIEFFER: You know I was struck when you said during the Democratic Convention, you talked about being an education president. But you said you can't be a business President unless you're an education President.
JULIAN CASTRO: Yeah. You know, in San Antonio, we believe that brainpower is the new currency of success in the twenty-first century global economy. And so the only way that America is going to be competitive, that our businesses are going to thrive in the long run when they have to compete against China, against other countries, is that we have a very well-educated population. It's my hope that in this term, President Obama will get to implement the great ideas that he has to link those two, education and economic competitiveness.
BOB SCHIEFFER: If I didn't say so, you're both Democrats, and I probably should add that.
REPRESENTATIVE JOAQUIN CASTRO: Yeah.
JULIAN CASTRO: We are, yeah, sure.
REPRESENTATIVE JOAQUIN CASTRO: That's right.
BOB SCHIEFFER: But Congressman-- you're freshman Congressman.
REPRESENTATIVE JOAQUIN CASTRO: Sure.
BOB SCHIEFFER: What to you is the most important issue?
REPRESENTATIVE JOAQUIN CASTRO: Well, of course, Bob, you know, getting the nation's fiscal situation in order is probably the over-arching issue that we need to-- to deal with. Also, immigration reform, of course, gun safety. But I think right now, at the moment we are in, in our nation, making sure that both parties can come to the table and work and-- and-- and come to agreements in earnest. It's-- it's been a long time since we've been able to do that. So whether it's gun-- gun safety or whether it's immigration, if you can't come and sit in good faith and work things out, then you're going to continue to have a lot of the gridlock that we've had before. I also think that that Speaker Boehner should really consider dropping the Hastert Rule, for example, which I think has been a real-- one of the-- the leading causes of this gridlock that we faced in Congress. So all of these things, and being able to-- make sure that we can-- we can come to agreements and compromise in good faith.
BOB SCHIEFFER: What do you all-- Texas is a very, very Republican state. But some people say the demographics are changing and the demographics alone will make that-- it won't be so-- so Republican next time around.
JULIAN CASTRO: Yeah. In a couple of presidential cycles, you'll be on election night, you'll be announcing that we're calling the thirty-eight electoral votes of Texas for the Democratic nominee for President. It's changing. It's going to become a purple state and then a blue state, because of the demographics, because of the population growth of folks from outside of Texas. And because, unfortunately, the Republican Party has gone so far to the right that they're losing the business community, they're losing the middle.
REPRESENTATIVE JOAQUIN CASTRO: Oh-- no, I think that's right. But it's not going to happen on its own. The demographics are changing, but it's going to take a lot of work from Democrats to lay the infrastructure for change, so we're very busy working on that now.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Well, I want to wish you all the very best.
REPRESENTATIVE JOAQUIN CASTRO: Thank you.
JULIAN CASTRO: Thank you.
BOB SCHIEFFER: Washington could be a wonderful place, Congressman. You'll find out things you didn't think about it, but there will be other things that you'll find out that you-- that are good that you didn't know about. Mister Mayor, congratulations to you.
JULIAN CASTRO: Thank you very much.
BOB SCHIEFFER: And thanks to both of you for being with us this morning.
REPRESENTATIVE JOAQUIN CASTRO: Thank you having us.
BOB SCHIEFFER: We will be back in just a moment.
BOB SCHIEFFER: And that is-- that for-- that's it for us today. Be sure to join us tomorrow for our CBS News coverage of the President's inauguration. Charlie Rose, Norah O'Donnell, and Gayle King will have an expanded edition of CBS THIS MORNING starting at 7 AM Eastern Time. Then I'll join Scott Pelley and the rest of the CBS News team for our Inauguration special report starting at 10 AM Eastern. We'll also have full coverage of the day's events on the CBS EVENING NEWS and CBSNews.com. As for FACE THE NATION, of course, we'll be right here next Sunday.
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